Talk:Social anarchism

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Contents 1 Tasks To Do 2 What? 3 Title change 4 Inaccurate Recent Additions

[edit] Tasks To Do

• An examination of the term both before and after Bookchin. --FluteyFlakes88 03:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
• "Response" from proponents of "Lifestyle anarchism" such as Bob Black and Crimethinc. Daykart 16:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think they would consider themselves as such. This point is already elaborated in the article. I don't think that one could find a rational response that goes further than that. --FluteyFlakes88 19:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

• Needless to say, this page needs links to criticism of Bookchin's stupid book. If people are going to use the entry "lifestyle anarchism" to continue narrow-minded, sectarian attacks against anarchists, some fairness is needed here. Chuck0 03:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What?

I've never heard of the use of the phrase "social anarchism" outside of anarcho-capitalists who invented it to help justify their position. Is this wrong, or shouldn't that be put into the article? Aufheben 23:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it has been the title of a social anarchist journal since 1981, so its adoption as a self-description has some precedent. It would be good if the article could identify how long the term has been used for, though. VoluntarySlave 04:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Not that I doubt you, but can you please cite that journal? I haven't heard of it before. Aufheben 14:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It's at socialanarchism.org. VoluntarySlave 20:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Social anarchism is a tendency within the bigger anarchist movement. Contemporary social anarchists can be found at projects such as Social Anarchism journal. This entry has been vandalized by a user who has crazy ideas about what anarchism really is. He wants to use Wikipedia to push his POV that anarchism is actually "social anarchism" when most anarchists know that social anarchism is one flavor of anarchism. Chuck0 22:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I assume you're talking about me since it's my last entry that you reverted. I'm well aware that all anarchism is not social anarchism. How can you say I'm pushing a POV that "anarchism is actually social anarchism" when what you reverted was my addition of a sourced statement that pointed out that anarchism also includes individualist anarchism? Of course not all anarchism is social anarchism. Anarchism is a broad category of anarchisms (which includes anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism, etc) and is not the only kind of anarchism. Moreover, you reverted the sourced statement with the claim that it was original research. Let me clue you on in something, Chuck0. If something is sourced, then it's by definition not original research. You need to wake up. Your objections are incoherent.Anarcho-capitalism 02:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Your POV pushing is incoherent and disconnected from reality. My changes to this entry have been vandalized by you again. That's all you do around here: vandalize any changes made by anarchists to anarchism entries. Are you on Jimbo Wales' payroll or what? Social anarchism is a subset of anarchism, but this entry has been written to make it seem like social anarchism is an umbrella for anarcho-communism and other tedencies. Anarchists see social anarchism as being something associated with Murray Bookchin's circle and the folks at Social Anarchism magazine. Chuck0 16:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Coming from someone who claims they are an expert an anarchism you continually show that you know nothing about it. Social anarchism is indeed "an umbrella for anarcho-communism and other tendencies." What is most astounding is that this is pointed out in the "Anarchist FAQ" that you host on YOUR "Infoshop" website! I quote from that FAQ "Are there different types of social anarchism? Yes. Social anarchism has four major trends -- mutualism, collectivism, communism and syndicalism." [1] Have you even bothered to read the thing? Granted, that FAQ has a lot of bad information in it, but it's correct on that widely known point. Unbelievable. Anarcho-capitalism 17:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)? Do you understand that people sometimes use a phrase in a way that more imprecise than how most other people use it? Just because some people use social anarchism as an umbrellla term, does not mean that this is the way that most anarchists see this variety of anarchism. Once again, the ONLY REAOSN WHY THIS MATTERS TO YOU IS BECAUSE IT SERVES YOUR ANARCHO-CAPITALIST POV. You have shown on numerous occasions that you intend to control Anarchism entries on Wikipedia to reflect your own POV. I've challenged you over and over again on this. Nobody has stepped in to reign in your behavior, so I assume that this we will go round and round on this for years. That's too bad. Chuck0 07:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Some Wikibot has censored my choice of colorful language. Welcome to the kinder, gentler fascism of Wikipedia. Chuck0 08:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Chuck0, by your latest edits you indicate that you think Bookchin uses the term "social anarchism" to refer to a particular type of anarchism instead of an umbrella term. But, you're wrong again. Bookchin also uses it to include anarcho-communism, syndicalism, etc. Try reading his essay "Social or Lifestyle Anarchism." [2] Anarcho-capitalism 18:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That is included in my compromise version. There are two sections which explain the different uses of the phrase social anarchism. My compromise edit reflects that some anarchists, such as Bookchin, use the term more broadly, while many others use the term to describe a narrower tendency within contemporary anarchism. Chuck0 18:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title change

The more common term is "socialist anarchism." I think the name of the article should be changed. Operation Spooner 07:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

In anarchist usage, "socialist anarchism" most often includes socialist forms of individualist anarchism (e.g. Spooner's), and "social anarchism" does not. Social anarchism is a subset of socialist anarchism. Jacob Haller 09:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Individualist anarchism is not socialism. Spooner a socialist? Nonsense. Operation Spooner 04:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

He doesn't seem to use the word, but associated with others who did, and made what are at least radically left-libertarian criticisms of the existing economic arrangements. See also [3]. Jacob Haller 08:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

A number of the individualist anarchists (e.g. Tucker) called themselves socialists; Spooner was a member of the First International, a socialist organization. Furthermore, the page you cite from the Adams book doesn't say that "social anarchism" and "socialist anarchism" are synonyms; indeed, it uses the phrase "social anarchism" only once on that page, and seems to be contrasting it to socialist anarchism (green anarchism is described as a variant of social anarchism, but is contrasted to socialist anarchism). That book doesn't appear to support your contention that "socialist anarchism" and "social anarchism" are synonyms.VoluntarySlave 21:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure Tucker called himself a socialist but he's not a socialist. I don't know what it meant back in the 1800's but today it means social ownership as opposed to individual ownership. I'd love to see a definition of socialism that would include the philosophy of Tucker as being socialism. It would have to be extreme minority definition to stretch the meaning of the term to fit him in. Operation Spooner 05:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

It didn't mean social ownership then and it doesn't mean social ownership now. At least within the anarchist movement individualist and mutualist traditions have always been considered socialist. Jacob Haller 09:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The more common term is not "socialist anarchism". Searching for "socialist anarchism" on google only brings up one Mises article on the first page with the explicit phrase "socialist anarchism", and Mises is a fringe view. "Social anarchism" however, is much more explicitly used.

"Collectivist anarchism" is a subset of social anarchism, see Collectivist anarchism.

Also, the source you cite is not a significant enough source for its view to be cited in the introduction. (Amazon.co.uk Sales Rank: 359,064 in Books [4] -- infinity0 18:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think sales figures are relevant. Operation Spooner 04:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that "collectivist anarchism" has a much more specific meaning, and "socialist anarchism" has a much less specific meaning, than "social anarchism," even if some outsiders use them interchangibly. (I don't consider myself a "social anarchist," but I can see how people use the term.) Jacob Haller 08:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

People have various terms for the same thing. Whether it's "social anarchism," "socialist anarchism," or "collectivist anarchism," what all these have in common is advocacy of common ownership as opposed to individual ownership. Operation Spooner 05:24, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

They aren't the same thing. "Socialist anarchism" includes Tucker's "anarchistic socialism," Tandy's "voluntary socialism," etc. as well most forms of social anarchism. "Social anarchism" includes collectivist anarchism (which generally involves money) and communist anarchism (which generally doesn't) among other forms. Jacob Haller 09:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

OS, your sources represent minority view. The majority view is that anarchism is socialist, and that both individual and social anarchism are "socialist anarchism". -- infinity0 21:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Good to see the POV removed. That was added by that anarcho-capitalist who has since been banned by Wikipedia. This entry is still inaccurate, because it reflects the views of people who are unfamiliar with the subject matter. This entry should focus on the contemporary usage of the term "social anarchism," which is a small movement within anarchism, notably centered around Social Anarchism magazine. It's true that people use the phrase loosely to distinguish between individualists and other anarchists, but an encyclopedia entry shouldn't focus on a colloquial use of a term. There is an actual social anarchism movement. Chuck0 21:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate Recent Additions

Somebody has been recently adding new sections to this entry which are at odds with the actual understanding of "social anarchism" as a political tendency. People are adding sections about other tendencies which don't belong under this entry. Social anarchism is a subset of anarchism, at the same level of anarcho-syndicalism and so on. Putting anarcho-syndicalism under this entry basically constitutes either original research or an attempt to use Wikipedia for sectarianism. These new sections need to be taken out. Chuck0 (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)