Talk:Soapy Smith
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[edit] Smith Soapy
Mr.Smith's estate at the time of death at the barrel of a winchester rifle was $500.00
For an excellent TV program see: Ghost Trails and Ghost Towns @ BCTV British Columbia , Canada. This show has unpresidented items of early 1800's pariphinalia; including gold bars and coins, stock and bond certificates. Thiis is thehas spent a lifetime in first hand study on these sites of early Americana and Canadiana.
== From Jeff Smith == (great grandson and family historian)
The above information is incorrect. According to estate records he had more, but court fee, and inquest costs were attached to Soapy's estate. By the time they were finished with the fees, Soapy had a tad over $100.00 to his name. Jeff Soapy Smith 23:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] About source for Soapy Smith
- As of 1/9/2007 Jeff Smith and the Soapy Smith Preservation Trust will no longer contribute to this page. PLEASE NOTE: The information published after 1/9/2007 is not sanctioned or endorsed by the Trust. Thank you for your past support. Soapy 23:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
My name is Jeff Smith, President of the Soapy Smith Preservation Trust. After spending over twenty years researching the life and death of my great grandfather, Jefferson Randolph ("Soapy") Smith, I am, without a doubt, the foremost authority on the subject. I was invited to re-write the Wiki page on Soapy. After much hesitation, due to the fact that anybody can make changes, I did so, and listed myself as the main source of information for the page. I apoligize, and thank, the previous authors. As of this date, the article is historically accurate. If such a time comes that too many incorrect edits are being made, I will remove my name, and association with the page, so as not to confuse people into believing that the Soapy Smith Preservation Trust, and the rest of the Smith family, endorses any incorrect information. This may come off as egotistical, but past lessons necessitate this kind of reaction. Currently, there are two books in publication that use my name as a source to "prove" false statements.
The Soapy Smith article, as it is now, is vague. Once my book is published, I will add more information and photographs. That being said, I look forward to working with Wikipedia. Jeff Soapy Smith 16:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Is that Soapy in The Far Country
Someone claimed John McIntire was portraying Soapy in the 1955 film The Far Country. The film is set in Skagway, Alaska during the Klondike gold rush, and he does look like Soapy, but his part is that of Skagway sheriff "Gannon." It is possible that the film company feared legal issues, as Soapy's son was known for sueing film companies for using his fathers name. Does the original poster who placed this film on the Soapy Smith page have any additional information revealing that McIntire played Soapy? Otherwise, this posting might be removed as inaccurate. Soapy 15:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
It's been one week since the poster listed the movie "The Far Country." I did not see or hear any information that John McIntire was portraying "Soapy," so I am deleting the information from the article. Soapy 03:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
After some more research, I opted to restore The Far Country. I did find that although the producers did not use Soapy by name, the character is loosely based on Soapy. Soapy 19:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] How could anyone honor this guy
One thing I dont get is this part "Every year on July 8th, there are several wakes held around the U.S. in Soapy Smith's honor." ... Holy shit, this guy was probably one of the worst guys of his time - bringing pain to soo many people and ruin to lots of families. On top of that he was a murderer. How can anyone honor that? --Thomas 23:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Thomas, At the time Soapy was killed, Frank Reid was the hero and Soapy, the bad guy. No one would dispute that assertion. As the years went by and the fears of exportation from town waned, the old timers began to tell their stories. Several citizens claimed that Many, if not most, of the businesses in Skagway owed their success to Soapy. Soapy was the largest donator to charities according to the newspapers, which included building the first church and school, the volunteer fire department and the humane society that aided stray dogs and horses. Turns out Frank Reid was not the good guy portrayed in many history books. He had killed an unarmed man in Oregon and had worked for Soapy as a bartender, and was an instrumental member of the real estate grifters, selling lots in Skaguay to more than one owner. Many old timers stated there were two gangs vying for control of the city. The bunco men and the real estate grifters. Soapy was the undisputed leader of one, and Reid was a member of the other. The tide changed when the railroad moved into town. They backed the real estate grifters, why? because that group was willing to give total control over to the railroad company, and Soapy did not want them to have it all. Turns out it was a railroad man who fired the bullet that killed Soapy (this will all be explained in great detail in my upcoming biography on Soapy). So today, the roll of goodguy/badguy has been blurred greatly, some even going to a point of stating that "Soapy was not all bad." Yes, Soapy was a badman, of this there is no doubt, but a murderer? Hardly. If you are talking about the killing of Frank Reid, I will say that Soapy did not go meet Reid on the evening of July 8th to kill him. That was not the normal method of operation for Soapy and the bunco men, and Skaguay mirrored Denver and Creede, Colorado in the ways Soapy operated. If you are talking about all the deaths that occured on the trails, then I will state that none of these have been layed at Soapy's doorstep. These are bunco men we are talking about here. They were noted for using their brains, not their brawn. As the beginning dialog of the daily Soapy Smith play (Days of '98) in Skagway says: "No names of those portrayed in this play were changed to protect the innocent...because no one was innocent." Soapy 21:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed answer "Soapy" :). Quite interesting that he has this 2 very different sides. It makes it so hard to judge what he really is - he spend a lot of money to charity ... but then again, this money he stole from the poor before that. And even the charity might have just suited his needs (e.g. getting reputation). I can still imagine so many people that I personally would consider more worth of these honors - even (or because) they didnt have the money to spend on charity.
- With "murderer" I refered mostly to the part "He faced several assassination attempts and shot several of his assailants". Also you don't stay boss of the underworld, as nice man - ordering some liquidations I assumed part of the job.
- His character is surely interesting - and more deep than "just criminal". And these times were tough indeed. Thanks for the insight. --Thomas 23:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- You are very welcome Thomas. Here's a little more insight on your comments: I don't pretend that Soapy was one of the good guys, but it was indeed hard to see Soapy's bad side while he was alive. There are many "good" people in the world that never give to the poor as Soapy always did. He did con his victims, but these were not the poor. He, along with all bunco men, depend, and go after people with money that tend to be greedy. Soapy would set up a victim to think he had a "sure-thing," and could not lose. Take three-card Monte for example. The operators bend a corner of the winning card and the greedy player thinks he is going to cheat the operator, but it is a trick to get the greedy to fork out more money. Soapy always felt vendicated in his methods as he felt the victims were more than willing to cheat him if they could. If you were not a greedy person, you really had little to worry about. The old saying "You can't cheat an honest man" rings true in this instance.
- The business men of Skaguay in 1898 loved Soapy because he was keeping money in circulation in town, rather than going with the miners to the Klondike. Then he used that money to help build up the town. After his death, old friends and members of the gang continued to visit his grave and his widow in St. Louis. A decade after Soapy was killed one old member of the gang in Denver refused to bad mouth his old friend in the newspapers. Now that's loyality! Soapy 20:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed answer "Soapy" :). Quite interesting that he has this 2 very different sides. It makes it so hard to judge what he really is - he spend a lot of money to charity ... but then again, this money he stole from the poor before that. And even the charity might have just suited his needs (e.g. getting reputation). I can still imagine so many people that I personally would consider more worth of these honors - even (or because) they didnt have the money to spend on charity.
- There is no Hollywood good guys and bad guys in the real world - Skysmith 10:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Original research
[edit] Request for Comment
[edit] Message from Jeff Smith
I wish to thank all those who have supported this page from the very beginning. Sadly Wikipedia has sided with Jaysbro being that I won't release my research until after my book is published. As of 1/9/2007 the Smith family no longer will be apart of this page. Jaysbro, congrats, the page is yours. Soapy 23:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- What do you mean, Wikipedia has sided with me? I only saw one other user on my side in the whole discussion, and no admins ever weighed in. In any event, when your book gets published and it and your sources get commented on and written about by notable experts, feel free to come back, make chanes, and cite those sources. Jaysbro 16:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
- I note you went to my User page so you did know that ONE volunteer administrator took your side, no matter how wrong he was. I don't recall anyone else siding with you. I enjoyed your attempt to discredit my expertise by stating that I would be "welcomed back when other notable experts comment and write about my upcoming book." Since when do the students grade the teacher? I sense great jealousy coming from you. As the recognized foremost historian on Soapy Smith (whether you agree, or not) I am paid well to speak on him (see the About Jeff page on my website to view a partial list of organizations I have lectured for). I note that you have not tried to alter the information on the page, good for you. As long as it stays up people will be able to read the true, previously documented and published facts regarding his life. One of the main reasons I am backing off from Wikipedia is the vandalism. I no longer have the time to constantly battle (and yet here I am) what is described by other users as "destroyers" much like yourself, who find any thread of a loop-hole to attempt to try and make themselves look good. Just know that you can only do that here on Wikipedia, where information changes faster than a toxic diaper. As for me? The world is my oyster. If you happen to be in Yucca Valley, California at the White Horse Movie Ranch on January 27, 2007 or at the Coweta County Historical Society museum in Newnan, Georgia on March 24, 2007 come by and catch my presentations. I will be displaying some of the documents talked about in previous postings here. Soapy 19:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Citing WP:V on the article page seems to be against policies and guidelines
I have scanned this Talk Page and I understand that there is an issue about the verifiability of the assertions made in the article. That notwithstanding, I do not believe that the big quotation of WP:V in the middle of the article is warranted and so I am removing it. If there is disagreement, please re-insert it but also please explain your reasoning for doing so here. --Richard 15:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- On second thought, I am moving the {{verifiability}} template to the top of this talk page. I have no objection whatsoever to the point made by the template and fully support it. What I do object to is having it prominently displayed in the text of the article. --Richard 15:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Agreed, I think you made a good choice to remove the template from the article itself. --Yksin 18:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Automatic redirection of "Jefferson Smith"
I think "Jefferson Smith" should be changed to a disambiguation page as there are at least 2 other notable people by this name--the character in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" and Oregon politician/activist Jefferson Smith. Thoughts? Kallionae 00:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
