Talk:Slot machine

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Slot machine is part of WikiProject Gambling, an attempt at building a useful gambling resource. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page (see Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ for more information).
Slot machine is included in the 2007 Wikipedia for Schools, or is a candidate for inclusion in future versions. Please maintain high quality standards, and make an extra effort to include free images, because non-free images cannot be used on the CDs.

Contents

[edit] History

I expect we might discover that slot machines predate Las Vegas (by a hundred years or so) one day. But, hey!, that might be hoping for a slightly less Americanocentric viewpoint than prevails in these here parts... user:sjc

I'm puzzled as to why the previous author, "sjc", felt compelled to remark about "these parts" being "Americanocentric", without having a source or some other basis on which to claim that slot machines were invented in another country. Sjc, if you have a reference to back up your "expectation" of slot machines being invented in another country, I look forward to reading all about it. Also the article (and numerous other sources) makes no mention of Las Vegas being the origin of slot machines. The article states that San Francisco is where they first became popular. (It's also misleading to speculate about an alternative origin for slot machines other than Las Vegas, when the article states otherwise in the introductory paragraph, and also given that Las Vegas was little more than a water stop in the desert in the late 1800s.)

All of the articles I have read on the history of slot machines state that the first slot machine was indeed called the "Liberty Bell", and later, the "Mills Liberty Bell".

A few moments of googling will yield thousands of online references documenting the Charles Fey/late 1880s/San Francisco origins of slot machines.

The most authoritative and detailed reference concerning the history of slot machines, that I am aware of, is from UNLV (University of Nevada Las Vegas):

http://gaming.unlv.edu/research/subject/slot_history.html

Here are three other references, picked at random from Google - they all agree on the overall history (with various details omitted):

http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blslotmachines.htm

http://www.acbutch.com/ACbutch-art-slot-history.html

http://www.slotsmachinesonline.com/history_of_slot_machines.html

There are also books published on this subject, such as:

LEMON, CHERRIES AND BELLFRUITGUM 352 page book, Dick Bueschel, 1995. "A full color history of slot machines from 1885-1995".

SLOT MACHINES: A PICTORIAL HISTORY of the FIRST 100 YEARS, 5th Edition with PRICE GUIDE "This publication by Marshall Fey is one of the best selling books on coin-op machines (over 30,000 copies sold) and is a collectors favorite. National History Award. Covers Slots, and Trade Stimulators from their inception up to todays casino machines, 667 photos, 412 in full color, hb, 256 pg".

Sjc's remarks about an "Americanocentric viewpoint" and some mysterious slot machines "predating Las Vegas by a hundred years or so" are unsubstantiated conjecture and misleading, respectively.

Sjc, if you have some political axe to grind against the historical record of this American invention, please at least find a better example than picking on a Bavarian immigrant who came to America to set up shop and create his inventions. Sources please. I would be eager to read all about it, to help dispel the "Americanocentric" bias you claim lingers "in these here parts".

Thanks. DV 03:56, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Slot clubs

Are slot clubs offered by gaming establishments outside of the United States? I added a subsection to the "United States slot machines" section that describes these clubs, as they are a significant part of gaming in the United States, especially for frequent slot players. DV 05:26, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Follow up on history

This article has now been substantially modified since my original comments were made nearly two years ago. If you look at the article which then existed by going to the history, you will probably immediately discern why I made those comments, and they probably need no more explanation than that. Sjc 09:50, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Sjc. Your original comment didn't have a timestamp, so I didn't realize how much time had elapsed, nor how different the article was when you made your original comment. I'm sorry that I attributed your comment to the later article.
If you do ever find info about slot machines that predate Las Vegas by a hundred years or so, please let me know, as my wife and I enjoy this subject. Thanks for stopping by. --DV 10:06, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I am not even sure timestamps with the four tildes were available when I wrote it :) Sjc 04:37, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Included some extra information regarding UK Stlye machines. [kensplace]

[edit] Gaming Machines

The official term for these machines in Australia is 'Gaming Machines'. The term 'pokies' or 'poker machines' is pure local slang.

I'm not sure of the position of other countries but a quick google on 'Gaming Machines' will reveal that the term is at least used in Australia, UK and USA.

Never the less, the other names of them should definatly redirect here, which they don't currently. Jedi-Jesus 04:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

In Nevada, slot machines are also called "gaming machines" - I guess it sounds better than "gambling".

The real reason I'm writing is that when I worked for a casino (mid-1990's), the coin areas of the machine included the coin hopper and the drop box. I wasn't a slot tech, so I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that the hopper (physically located at the top of the machine) is filled up by casino personnel, but never by people who insert coins/tokens. Anything inserted into the machine went into a separate area of the machine (at the bottom) known as the "drop box", yet there's no mention of this in the article. I'm pretty sure it's still true, so it would be cool if someone could check this out. I'll ask one of my friends at the casino when I have a chance.

--ZZYZX 06:49, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Added clarifications as to hopper and drop box.

Not true. coins inserted by the player fill the hopper until it reaches a certain level, until they contact a metal probe, therefore completeing a circuit and actuating a diverter solenoid, sending the coins to the drop instead. This prevents the hopper from overflowing(and shorting out a circuit board or something). The hopper sits in the bottom of the game, under the reel shelf or monitor--Pilotsmoe 05:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fairplay & Fraud

Added a controversial part to European section about alleged fraud. Only one source, so cleanup, wikify, add counterpoints etc as you see fit. Added for completeness of article. Djbrianuk 23:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Myths Debunked

I disagree with this information being presented as fact. One finds books that make these same claims. However, it is fundamentally illogical to have multiple hits on a variety of machines from 7-10 pm, then hit nothing at all by 5 am the next day, after the "multiple hits" money, and then some, is depleted!206.195.19.42 22:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

If you have credible sources to support this claim, feel free to add those references to the article. -- Seitz 17:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually question the "hot and cold machines" assertion as a "myth". As the author asserted, some machines "force" wins to attain a "payout percentage". In Australia at least, regulations require a payout percentage of between 60-90% (depending on region and type of venues), and this figure is audited daily. This payout percentage is not calculated daily, so it may not manifest over several hours, or even days; however it is logically possible that a machine would pay more if it hasn't paid out for a long period of time. It's just that this "long period" could be as long as several days, and few would be sufficiently vigilant to scrutinise such patterns.--Alexio 01:22, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Slot payout percentages in the payout program are supposed to be calculated over the lifetime of the machine, not within a short time period of a few hours. There will be periods of time where the machine will not pay out, just like there will be periods of time when the machine pays out many times in a short period. Over the life of the machine, however, it will all work out to the preprogrammed payout percentage. SpikeJones 03:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This is actually a common suggestion heard when working with slot machines here in Australia. It's important to remember that the RTP (Return To Player) percentage is modified by changing reel strips, modifying payouts for symbol combinations, modifying second screen features and changing left-to-right/right-to-left/pay-any rules etc.

[edit] Online Slots

Is it worth having a section dedicated to online slots? There's far more variety in online slot games. Paylines alone they range from single paylines up to 20 payline games. Also some of the most popular online slot games have bonus games. Some of these bonus games are luck based, for example wheel of fortune style, but others are skill based. If anything the increase in slots popularity is coming from more people playing online. Any thoughts? Excel32 10:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

If there is anything significantly different in the way that online slots work compared to the way physical slots work, then yes - add a section for online slots that specifically identifies those differences. (ex: online slots have multiple paylines, but so do physical slots -- that fact wouldn't qualify; nor would the existence of skill- or luck-based bonus games, as those also exist in physical slots) If the only difference is that there is "more variety and they are gaining popularity", then there is no need to add a section for online slots. If you do find enough information to add the section and use the phrase "increase in popularity coming from people playing online", then you need to provide references that supports that statement. SpikeJones 11:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, we're missing something here. The article focuses extensively throughout on slot machines taking coins, having hoppers, etc. etc. - basically them being physical machines installed at venues. Online slots are radically different in their presentation: No hopper, no light tower, no coin/note entry, no coin tray - the differences are endless and very obvious. There is no doubt that online slots are a very different beast and they probably even deserver their own article.--203.2.182.254 01:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
See: Online slot games. Accurizer 02:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Video poker?

It seems wrong to describe "video poker" as "slot machines". They seem fundamentally different games, in terms of appearance, game play, and strategy. However, I can see the argument being made that these are just variations in the type of slot machine game. I'd like to read what others think. -- Seitz 18:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I think in terms of gameplay and appearance, the two games are very similar indeed, although IMO a good argument could be made that video slots are a fundamentally different game from reel slots, since the mechanism running the actual machine is different. Slot machines and video poker are certainly closely related though. The main difference is the skill element involved, and there are some "video poker" machines and games that run just as randomly as slot machines, and don't have a skill element at all.Rray 03:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
A video poker machine, video slot machine and mechanical reel machine are essentially the exact same thing. They consist of a logical unit that controls the display output and RNG (Random number generator), the display output and the method for accepting and paying currency. In a video poker machine the only difference is the chance to exchange a result (mathematically the same as a "spin") for a different result. IGT video poker or video reel machines for example use the exact same machine cabinet, processor and hardware. The only change is the glass and the software installed. A mechanical reel machine or "stepper" uses the same concept however in stead of displaying the results on a video screen the processor translates the results to a mechanical reel position using optics and a stepping motor. WMS Gaming's CPU-NXT processor may be used universally in a video poker, video reel or stepper reel game as long as the appropriate software is installed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.188.135.34 (talk) 19:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Australian poker machines

I'm proposing the following changes:

  • Boldening the term "gaming machine" and put "poker machine/pokies" in quotation marks - the "official" term (as acknowledged by the author) should be bolded.
  • Gaming machines are not legal "all over the country" - it's still illegal in Western Australia outside of Burswood.
  • Changed references to "clergy" and "charities to the poor" to "religious groups" and "welfare organisations". Charities are only one type of welfare organisations - how about Gamblers Anonymous?
  • "This higher level of complexity has meant that greater revenues can be obtained by operators, but also that the potential for problem gambling to develop is increased." - empirical basis unclear. Left out unless cites are provided.
  • "This greater accessibility is also seen as a potential contributor to problem gambling." - once again, empirical basis is unclear. There are at least 9 dimensions to accessibility according to the Australian Productivity Commission's report in 1999[[1]]. Which (if any) of them pertains to problem gambling is open to research.
  • "In the state of Queensland gaming machines in pubs and clubs must provide a return rate of 60% while machines located in casinos must provide a return rate of 90%." - citation is needed. NSW also has a pay-back quota, although I'm not sure what it is (and don't have the citation).--Alexio 01:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] NZ English: pokie machines

Perhaps some reference could be made to the NZ English (and Australian?) term: pokie machine. From the NZ Herald: [2] Charities take stand against pokies funding 1.00pm Friday September 8, 2006 Twenty charities have banded together and refused to accept the takings from pokie machines because they say the impact of gambling undermines their moves to help the needy. Dailyenglish 06:59, 8 September 2006

Yes, "pokie machine" or collectively "the pokies" are both common terms for the poker machine in Australia and New Zealand. Can someone please have this updated in the article (it appears to have been protected)? 122.99.82.107 (talk) 01:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British English: Slot machines

Both the BBC News (29/01/2007|22:00GMT) and The Guardian [3] refer to these as slot machines, not 'fruit machines'. Fruit machines is an older name which is no longer used officially in the UK. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Civil engineering student (talk • contribs) 22:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, where I come from (Newcastle, North East England) "fruit machines" are strictly gambling machines; the term "slot machines" includes coin-operated arcade games (such as video games) that do not give out prizes. Bear in mind that the BBC and The Guardian are very London-centric media organisations; anything you see here doesn't necessarily apply outside of that rather narrow corner of South East England, so don't take it as representative of the United Kingdom as a whole. AdorableRuffian 00:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

AWP - never heard of it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.217.117.34 (talk) 13:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


23:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)23:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)~~== is this linkspam disguised as a reference? ==

Could someone take a look at the two links posted for http://arcadenemy.freewebsitehosting.com and determine if they are spam or not? They are linked as references for slot fraud techniques, but the sites themselves appear to be selling potentially illegal - or not - items. SpikeJones (talk) 17:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't say so, there are pretty detailed descriptions of tools for fraud yes, but legality is defined I suppose by your local laws and country of residence. There have been repeated attempts in the UK and USA to prevent marketing of them, but I think there is a reluctance on the part of legislators to do so as the industry itself is commonly seen as corrupt too. The descriptions are educational, and you wouldn't be tempted to buy one unless a conman yourself would you?Gamcare1 (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UK slot machine operation

"These machines also operate in a different fashion to American slot machines; whereas slots are programmed to pay a percentage over the long-run, there is no reason why a jackpot cannot be paid straight after one has already been won - this is because over the long-run the percentage payout will be the same. However, in the UK, a fruit machine takes on an amount above its payout percentage before winning, so if a payout is 95%, a machine will make the player lose £10 before paying out £9.50. As such, it is sensible to watch for people playing these machines but not winning as the likelihood of a win increases. This, however, is called Sharking."

I dont believe this to be true.

UK fruit machines operate in exactly the same way by paying out to a percentage over an indefinite period of time.

A UK machine can pay out over its percentage and will then make up the shortfall later. This can be proven with emulation.

Example

I clear the machines ram (so its payout history is erased)
Set the payout percentage to 80%
Put £2 in
Win £10 with my 5th credit (30p play)
Payout percentage is currently 500% (machine is set to 80%)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.225.211 (talk) 14:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 6 reels???

"These machines commonly have 3 or 6 reels"

Since when have our machines commonly had 6 reels? By my experience they normally have 3; I'd normally expect one that doesn't to have 4 rather than 6. -- Smjg (talk) 01:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Breaking Up the Article?

The article is already long enough (50 KB). I was thinking it may be a good idea to break it up in chunks. I was thinking on separating the AWP and pachisuro Sections into different articles. Any thoughts? Jmgonzalez (talk) 10:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree the article is long and should be split somehow. I don't know if splitting AWP and pachisuro is the best option; while the sections are somewhat sizable, they lack sourcing which would make those articles tougher to stand alone. How about splitting that whole heading into a Regional variations in slot machines article? Perhaps that would be a more notable article subject (but perhaps not), and at the very least it splits out a larger chunk. Of course it would also need much better sourcing, much like the above suggestion. Other thoughts? -FrankTobia (talk) 14:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
the article really isn't that long. I agree that the 'regional' option, and perhaps the 'terminology', would be the only items worth breaking out separately. That said, I think that the article needs to be reviewed for editing/content changes first -- including sourcing -- before it's split. Perhaps that would be enough to shorten the article to what you believe it needs be shortened to. SpikeJones (talk) 16:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed claim of $A238billion

Previously, the article read: In New South Wales, gaming machine revenue increased from $A425.2 million in 1978 to $A238 billion in 1998 with a link to http://www.pc.gov.au/inquiry/gambling/finalreport/summary.pdf Productivity Commission, Australia’s Gambling Industries, Final Report, Summary, 26 November 1999

The URL is a dead link, and 238 billion Australian dollars is just about the entire GDP of New South Wales, so clearly the statement is false. Probably a decimal point was omitted, but because the link is dead, I can't collect the correct figure. Perhaps the original contributor or someone else can find where the Commission's paper resides now and get the correct amount, then reinsert the statement.

Ordinary Person (talk) 02:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Image(04).jpg

Image:Image(04).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)