Talk:Sixth Crusade

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[edit] Legacy and Precedent

I don't think this section is particularly useful and should be absorbed into the main article. It also does not come across as balanced enough, as it hinges on the perception of Frederick's crusade as a success, which some historians would argue is flagrantly untrue. Gh0ti-2 22:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numbering the Crusades

Can anyone explain to me why the Sixth Crusade is, in German, the de:Fünfter Kreuzzug, that is to say the Fifth? The articles clearly refer to the same event, I'm just wondering why the discrepancy in numbering; it might be worth explaining in the article, since it can be very confusing when trying to do research. -- Jmabel 21:12, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Well, both the fifth and the sixth were led by Frederick II, and sometimes they are considered to be one giant crusade. Sometimes nothing after the fourth is numbered, because there are just too many of them to divide into numbered and unnumbered. I have also seen these referred to as "Frederick II's first crusade" and his "second crusade," and also "Louis IX's first crusade" (and his second, to refer to what we have as the eighth and ninth here). However, on de:, they also have de:(Fünfter) Kreuzzug, and a note on the un-bracketed Fünfter saying "Dieser Kreuzzug wird manchmal als Sechtster Kreuzzug gezählt" ("sometimes also considered the Sixth Crusade"). So, after all this, I don't really know why they do that :) Adam Bishop 04:46, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think the non-numbering system works best. Calling Frederick II's crusades 5th and 6th is very much a French tradition and isn't really reflected in most historical studies. Going back to the German numbering that was traditionally used in English language works would obviously cause confusion since the popularisation of the French numbering but it doesn't agree with most of the more in depth books people might go to(people like Riely-Smith, Smail, Kedar, Mayer, Ellenbaum). Naming by leaders is the clearest way to define them in my opinion. 147.10.143.23 06:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I think naming by leaders only functions from the 'Fifth Crusade' onwards. The preceding expeditions all had numerous leaders, or at least a clear hierarchy was not really established. Gh0ti-2 22:15, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Probably typo, certainly confusing

"…and his wife, late Mary I, Queen of Jerusalem." I'm guessing that "late" is a typo for "later", but it can (very obscurely) mean "previously". Could someone who knows the facts here please turn it into "later" or "previously", whichever is correct? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:15, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)