Talk:Sikhism/Archive 2

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

From May 2006 to June 2006

Contents

Peer review

I've archived all the previous discussion in preperation for extensive work on this article. Hopefully the peer review can help use on our way to FA status. I'll add my comments about what needs to be done shortly. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

New layout

I think we need a better layout, and this is what I propose (based on other religous pages):

  1. Etymology
    Originating from Sanskrit (śiṣya or śikṣā) or Pali (sikkhā).
  2. Beliefs
    One god - reference to what god is in Sikh thought, reference the Mul Mantra as underlying the characteristics of God
    Thoughts on birth, death, reincarnation, karma - relation to dharmic faiths and crucially how Sikhism differs
    Equality of people regardless of race, religion, caste etc,
  3. History
    General climate in India at the time
    The Sikh gurus; placing special emphasis on Nanak as the founder, and Gobind Singh as the founder of the Khalsa
    The Guru Granth Sahib
    Influences in Sikhism post-Gurus (famous Sikhs like Banda Bahadur and Ranjit Singh). Including influence of the British, and issue in independent India.
  4. Scripture
    Guru Granth Sahib (creation of, layout and content)
    Dasam Granth (and controversy)
    Janam Sakhis
    Other scripture
  5. Khalsa
  6. Sikhs
    Five Ks
    Punjab and punjabi culture and how it relates to Sikhism
    Sikhism in the diaspora
    New Sikh converts
  7. Institutions
    Places of worship (Gurdwaras)
    Harimandir Sahib, Akal Takht (spirtual and temporal - duties of both)
    SGPC and other gurdwara administration committees
  8. Sects and groups
    Talk about differing groups of Sikhs (including caste distinctions which still persist contrary to Sikh teachings)
    Udasis, Nirankaris and others

In addition, we need to get rid of the mass of links at the bottom of the page, as well as the audio files which are not relevant on this page. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Pictures and Table

I don't see the need in having 2 pictures of men wearing turbans. I think one of them should be replaced by a picture of one of the 5 K's or maybe even a picture of a Guru.

Also, I think the order of the columns in the table containing information about the Gurus needs to be changed. I think all dates should be read in chronological order, which means that the "Date of Birth" column should come before the "Guruship on" column. This to me is a more logical order. Mandy Kaur 16:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your comments. We'll incorporate your commments in the re-write. The dates of the Gurus also need fact checking and have been flagged for some while. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, all done. Please check the new picture. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 17:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
That is a much better picture, thank you! There is something I am unsure about though and I hope someone can resolve the matter. In that table about the Gurus it says that Guru Nanak received his guruship the day he was born. Is this a widely accepted belief amongst the Sikh community? I ask because I had always thought that Guru Nanak became a Guru the day he emerged from the river Bain and said "There is neither Hindu nor Muslim..." and recited the Mool Mantra for the first time. I am not entirely sure though. Am I mistaken to believe this? Mandy Kaur 17:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
It could also be viewed that as there was nobody (well, apart from God I suppose), to pass their guruship onto him, he was a guru since birth. I believe your way of looking at it is definately better and I will change it. By the way, feel free to edit any of the articles on Wikipedia. There are plenty of problems on the Sikhism-related pages and none were really written by scholars. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Styles

I'm a bit unsure how to proceed with general styling in the article.

  • Punjabi written in Gurmukhi does not have a complex set of consonant clusters so sometimes the inherent 'a' is dropped without it being indicated in writing. Should we transcribe with or without the 'a'?
  • Also, when should we transliterate formally or use less formal transliterations (waheguru vs. vahigurū)?
  • Should we refer to the Guru's as Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh, or just Nanak, Gobind Singh?

Any opinions? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, we need to standardise on the original Gurmukhi spelling of the Guru's names. There are so many English variations it's not even funny. :D Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd go with "Guru Nanak", etc. - that is, leave off final 'a' and append 'Guru'. Graft 21:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the less formal transliterations would be appropriate here, but only in the cases where one is more known than the other like Waheguru should be used instead of vahiguru. Also I think we should keep the Guru in the names as that is what most Sikhs call them by. It is most important to keep this in it.Gsingh 22:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, the way I've done it now is to initially (outside of the intro) refer to each Guru fully with appropriate transliteration ("Gurū Nānak Dēv"), and everywhere else referred to each guru directly by their name ("Nānak") unless the context determines that I should use the full form. However, this is a problem that needs unification and standardisation across all India pages, so I'll work on that too now (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that you should still use Guru in front of the name at all times, it would be disrespectful not to. Maybe use Guru Nanak as the short for instead of Guru Nanak Dev. Gsingh 20:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I understand that Sikhs use long respectful titles for the Gurus, but that is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Other editors have raised the issue before and I do agree that Guru is an honorific title. I have no problem using it when initially introducing the gurus (i.e. stating that they are Gurus in Sikhism), but it's cumbersome and arguably not NPOV to carry on using it throughout the article. For example, if we take Muhammad as an example, you see that he is not referred to as "Prophet Muhammad" (unless distinguishing him from other people called Muhammad), nor is PBUH added at the end of his name. This is not a case of being disrespectful, just a matter of maintaining a neutral POV. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Why there isn't an article for "Sikhs"

I find it kind of surprising that "Sikh" redirects to "Sikhism". Ideally there should be two separate articles namely "Sikh" and "Sikhism", with the former concentrating of history and social life of Sikhs and the later focusing on religious philosophy and principles of Sikhism. Any opinions?

Sisodia 08:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a discussion with Rama's Arrow before regarding this issue. At the time I felt there wasn't enough of a need for the article because there wasn't enough information on this page. However, as we're fixing this page up now, there may be a case to distinguish the two. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 11:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

History Section

I've finally finished cleaning up and sourcing the history section. It gives a very basic outline and is very sparse. It need much more about the Gurus, aswell as post-Guru history. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 13:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Scripture

I need some help here distinguishing between Adi Granth (pronounced Aad Granth, not Adi Granth!) and the Guru Granth Sahib. The two terms are used synonymously all the time so it can get confusing. However, I'm thinking about making the distinction that the Adi Granth (the first book) will be the version created by Guru Arjan, and the GGS will be the version that Guru Gobind Singh made as the final Guru. What do people feel about this distinction? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Further reading of Gurinder Mann's "Making of Sikh Scripture", indicates that the elevation of the Adi Granth to an immortal Guru was what turned it into the 'Guru Granth Sahib'. Not necessarily the additions made by Guru Gobind Singh, but the actual act of making it the final guru was what turned it into the Guru Granth Sahib. So, what's everyone's take on this? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Guru Granth Sahib

I see on the article that Guru Gobind Singh is referred to as the last guru, maybe this should be changed to the last living Guru, as the GGS is now the last and eternal Guru. What does everyone else think. I'm referring to the picture in which Guru Gobind Singh is shown. Gsingh 00:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hari Singh's Comments

I've just pasted these comments from my talk page: Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sukh and Rama's Arrow,

It is great to know that you are both working to make the Sikhism article of featured article calibre. If there is anything I can help with, please do not hesitate to ask – and thank you for the opportunity to give some input. I have had a quick look and the article looks quite good – I will have a better look in the next few days and make my comments in more detail on the talk page on Sikhism.

Just my initial thoughts and to make the article broad in its coverage - I believe some of the revolutionary ideas of our Gurus don't seem to appear in any detail:

  • More on the beliefs & practise, ie:
  • Equality of women – back in the 1500's - that pretty outstanding – don't you think? – see article Women in Sikhism
  • Equality of castes/race including the "untouchables" - when the rest of the world was trading in slaves.
  • Concept of Langar as propelled by the second & third guru; Etc
  • Personally I would prefer less history - but I will leave that to you or may be look at this point later.

Hey, you are doing a Great job - Keep up the good work!! --Hari Singh 00:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I haven't really looked below anything under the scripture section just yet and as such those sections are expected to be pretty rough! I agree with most of your points, however I think the history section is going to have to get larger!  :) We haven't yet discussed much about Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh - and they have been by far the most influential of the ten gurus. We also haven't discussed post-guru Sikhism :) I don't really want to go into great depth, but the issues need to be mentioned.
Please feel free to add or change anything that looks wrong or odd. However, please ensure that you add references to reliable third parties because we need these to get it to a featured article. I'll take into account all your points and see what I can do as I work my way down the article. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

use of name Golden Temple

The name Golden Temple should be used sparingly, the name used should be Harimandir Sahib, which is the name that the SPGC has said is the only name that should be used. Gsingh 00:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have attached a link for your reference, link1 Gsingh 00:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

PINSAC nomination

I have nominated this article for being an SA on Portal:India, as I feel it does exemplify Wikipedia's very best India-related work. Comments can be made here. Thanks. Srikeit(talk ¦ ✉) 03:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments by Rama's Arrow

I've copied these from my talk page and where they were posted by Rama's Arrow:

In order for the article to be comprehensive, the following questions need to be answered:

  1. After the death of the last guru, who provided religious and spiritual leadership to the community? Who does that today (i.e. SGPC)? spiritual - SGGS; temporal - Panj Pyare
  2. What is the Sikh priestly order? Who is responsible for individual gurudwaras?

Sikhs deliberately don't have priestly order!!. Gurdwaras are managed by elected Management Committees (M/C). All G/W in Punjab under SGPC other have their own M/C

  1. Observations - rites of initiation (very prominent one, needs proper description), birth, marriage and death, festivals celebrated.

Amrit Sanchar Birth - No Formal - but visit ro G/W + ardas; Marriage - Anand Karaj; Death - Antim Sanskar

  1. Connection with Hinduism - I've worked to clarify the philosophical link of Sikhism with Hindu philosophy, but there are practical life connections that need explaining. I.e,

(1) What place does Hindu mythology and Gods such as Rama have in Sikh life and theology, as the pic suggests that Sikhs celebrate Diwali? Hindu "Mythology" is part of Sikhism - various sakhis apprears in verses of SGGS and in Dasam Granth (2) What about the tradition that the first male child of every Hindu Punjabi family became a Sikh to protect the religion and community? Here, Khushwant Singh's comment that Sikhs are kesh Hindus needs explanation. Have no direct knowledge of this

  1. Social reform in society - Nanak's new order brought major social changes in the Punjab, with the elimination of caste distinctions and Hindu-Muslim rivalry amongst the believing communities. What exactly are these principles? needs a sub-section in "Philosophy and teachings."

Please explain in more detail this query - Hindu-Muslim rivalry amongst the believing communities to me this does not make sense - sorry. I thought it was the other way - Gurus asked for harmony amoung the different religions?

  1. Sikhs, Observances - somehow I feel that these two sections are not complete. There needs to be more information on Sikh traditions, culture, family values and religious adherence.

agree will try and re-visit with suggestions, I hope!

Right, I'll attempt to deal with your comments one by one!
  1. Well, the Guru Granth Sahib provides the spiritual leadership to the community. However, in terms of Sikh personalities, I believe it would have been Banda Singh Bahadur, then the misls, then Ranjit Singh. Although none of these were spirtual figure heads, they were community leaders/warriors. The SGPC is merely responsible for the the administration and upkeep of gurdwaras in the Punjab. The Akal Takht is responsible for matters relating to temporal (non-religous issues). The Harimandir Sahib is reponsible for matters relating to spirtual issues. I'm not in a knowledgeable position when it comes to such issues, but a good place to start looks like this: [1].
  2. There is no priestly order. Anything that holds a Guru Granth Sahib is considered a gurdwara. In Punjab, historical gurdwaras are controlled by the SGPC. Other gurdwaras around the world are controlled by individuals or communities.
  3. Observations - yes need to add all that you've written there.
  4. Sikhs celebrate Diwali as "Bandi Chhorh Divas" and it's not celebrated for the same reasons as Hinduism (see the Diwali article for further details). Hindu Gods are readily referred to in the Guru Granth Sahib; sometimes as direct references to the avatars themselves, or as a broad reference to God. Most of the followers of Sikhism were Hindus (as were the families of the Sikh gurus), and so naturally terminology that they would have found useful is what was used. It is definately true that traditionally the first male of many Hindu families in the Punjab was raised a Sikh. However, I'm not sure about the specifics of this nor when/how it started. I have read somewhere that it may have been heavily influenced by the fact that it was a huge economic incentive to raise a child as a Sikh because then they could join the British Army (Sikhs were heavily favoured over other groups). You're welcome to research this further.
  5. Yes, we need this section.
  6. Yes, this needs improvement too.
I'll add what needs to be done to the to do box above. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If you wish to confuse yourself about Sikhism/Hinduism and their connection, please visit [2]. I make no claims as to the accuracy of anything written on the site though! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed an off-topic message to Talk:Sikhism/Off topic messages. See Wikipedia:talk page for guidelines for talk pages. Please use this talk page only for messages to improve this article. Andries 20:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You are doing a great job. Please look at the History of Sikhism as I have added a bit here--Hari Singh 05:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

3RR warning

To Goethean and Andries: Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

As things stand, both of you could be blocked for WP:3RR. I am off on a vacation for a few days, this may be my last edit of today. Please find a way to resolve this without deleting comments in talk pages. IMO, only Personal attacks can be refactored, and only refactoring the attack itself and not the whole comment. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
If you think that only personal attacks can be re-fractored then what would you do if I posted here 100k of completely off-topic material here? Clearly off-topic material can and should be removed too. Andries 21:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Let me get this straight -- you are just making this policy up? — goethean ॐ 22:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You are walking a very thin line, Andries. Of course that posting 100K of off-topic stuff can be easily removed. But your deletion of another editor's comment, because you believe it to be off-topic, may not be as simple as that. I would assume that the editor whose comments you removed will take this up with you. And now, to my well deserved time off. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I will make a wikipedia:request for comments about what I see inappropriate use of the talk page. Please note that if the verdict of this request for comments is positive then I will also make off-topic announcements on article talk pages to recruit sympathetic contributors to push my POV. Andries 09:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
You already did. See [3]. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The dispute is about archiving off-topic messages, not about deletion of off-topic messages. I archived it here Talk:Sikhism/Off topic messages Andries 08:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You effectively hid and therefore attempted to censor my post. Sfacets 08:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I will promise never to do it again as long as your posts are in correspondence with wikipedia:talk page. Andries 08:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
You cannot violate policy, Andries, because you believe another editor did. And you cannot promise a behavior that is expected of you, based on the behaviors of others. This is not a children's playground, you know? ≈ jossi ≈ t •

@ 15:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, what policy did I violate? Andries 15:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
How weren't my edits in accordance with wikipedia:talk page?

Sfacets 09:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

They were not in accordance with the stated purpose of the article talk page i.e. "The purpose of a talk page is to help to improve the contents of the article in question.". Your comments here did not try to improve this article, but another article. Andries 09:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Guru criticism

The article Guru has become a haven for criticising gurus, regardless of the religion the Guru teaches. By extension, because Sikhism features in a large section of the article, the very foundations of the Sikh religion are being called into question. This is especially true when a user clicks on 'Guru' and is forwarded to a critical article.

I invite Andries to use Common Sense and to not make up Wiki policy (and apply his fantasies) as he sees fit.

Please have a look at improving the article. Sfacets 04:16, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

My two pence

I have come to this page in view of a message received [4], and my response thereto [5]. I would like to state that I shall surely give my comments and suggestions, if required, to improve the contents of the page so that it may be upgraded to the status of a FA. However, for the time being, I am presenting below exact extracts from a book (namely, Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend (ISBN 0500510881) by Anna Dallapiccola. These extracts were originally written by W. H. McLeod in 1977.

QUOTE

The reformist movement was founded by Guru Nanak (c. 1469-1539), son of a village accountant of restricted means, who from his early years showed religious interests. Although he lived like any normal Hindu boy, he started questioning the the orthodox tenets of his faith and soon grew critical of the Caste and priesthood. He married quite young, worked along with his father, but after the birth of his second son, left home and became an became itinerant mendicant. According to legend, at the age of thirty-five, while meditating, he heard a voice enjoining him to spread the teachings of the true faith. For the next forty years, Nanak wandered singing religious songs and spreading his doctrine. To his disciple, or Sikhs, Nanak was guru. Shortly before his death, Nanak appointed one of his disciples, Guru Angad, s his successor. This tradition of Guru-ship lasted until Guru Govind Singh (1666-1708, proclaimed guru in1675) the tenth in the line of succession, abolished it. Originally, Sikhism was a pacifist religion, but by the time of Guru Govind Singh it had assumed a militaristic form, and his teachings was far removed from the tolerant message spread by Guru Nanak. From then on, the history of this movement became filled with conflicts. Eventually, the Sikhs founded their own state and ruled over a substantial part od north-western India. On the death of their great leader, Ranjit Singh in 1839, and after two bloody Anglo-Sikh wars, the British annexed the former Sikh territories in 1849.

The bible of the Sikhs is the Adi Granth (also known as Guru Granth) or the ‘original Granth’, to distinguish it from later Granth. It is a collection of compositions by Guru Nanak also contaning writings and aphorisms of various saints, reformers and gurus pre-dating him. These are in various languages such as Old Punjabi, Old Marathi, Old Western Hindi and Persian. The Adi Granth is thus repository of the earlier Bhakti poetry. The teachings of Sikhism originate mostly from Guru Nanak who, in turn, was greatly inspired by Kabir. The latter gurus only contributed additions. Over time Sikhism went a number of doctrinal change and took many Hindu features. The teachings of Guru Govind Singh, collected in a separate Granth or ‘tenth Granth’, reflect his militaristic strain and the violent age in which he lived.

There are many groups among the Sikhs with various levels of strictness and different religious traditions. Orthodox Sikhs are distinguished by the ‘five k’s’: the topknot (kesh) - true Sikh never cuts his hair – short drawers (kachha), the iron bangle (kara), the comb (kanga) and the short sword (kirpan). The honorific Singh is usually appended to the name after a formal initiation, but this is no longer strictly the case. Since the 16th century, the most important place in Sikh history and culture is Amritsar (Panjab), celebrated for its Golden Temple, the holiest among the Sikh gurudvaras (Temples), where the Adi Granth is kept and read.

UNQUOTE

I find the above write-up informative, except that it requires re-wording and re-phrasing at several places as the words like “militaristic” and some other points may require modification to align with the generally accepted position. If possible, I would try to re-word and modify the contents before certain points are incorporated in the main article. However, I would request other editors to assist in this task.

As regards, my comments and suggestions, pertaining to the current contents, I shall come back shortly, say within two-to—three days. Right now, I find the contents quite comprehensive, albeit someone may do a copyedit of the same. If possible, we may try to find a still better photograph as the lead photograph, that is, the first image, namely this one: Image:Amritsar-golden-temple-00.JPG. The image is ok for the time being - I think on second thoughts.

I am also searching the data base of Smithsonian Institute, as may be available on the WWW, and if I find some images suitable for incorporation in this article and other articles related to Sikhism, I shall be happy to upload the same and provide links here.

I wish all the best to Sukh, Rama’s Arrow and all other editors striving to make this article as a FA. Jo Bole So Nihal Sat Shree Akal. --Bhadani 07:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

All redlines in article should be "inked" by creating stubs - even a stub of few lines shall be useful. --Bhadani 08:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
There is some good material at Sant Mat as well, in which the background on "Sants" is presented. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Expand on current spiritual leadership, akal takht, sarbat khalsa, hukamnamas

Mr. Sukh, I have begun a section titled "Temporal matters" in which I have included the Akal Takht, the Sarbat Khalsa and the Hukumnamas. I have just finished uploading material on the Hukumnamas from a site that I found on Google. Have a look. As it is , I am a little tired and would do further editing tomorrow. Regards. Rajatjghai 21:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that's great. I've done some copyediting but there is way too much information on hukamnamas/gurmattas. I think we need a paragraph at most detailing what they are, who they apply to and how they differ. The rest should be in a separate article. I'll see what I can do to improve it. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Banda Bahadur

A section on "after the Guru's" that does not mention Banda Bahadur ? Also the article does not mention that the Sikh Kingdom got taken over by the British "after" the death of Maharja Ranjit Singh and seems to allude that he lost to the British. Haphar 08:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've addressed both these points. Please take a look. Thanks. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)