User talk:Shyisc

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[edit] Israel

OK this is just going off topic, i shouldnt have reffered to it I guess, but I jsut had to say something about 'facist neighbours' because it just goes against my personal feelings of moral standars and treatment which are completly irrelevant. Don't insult Okedem he was just stating his opinions, which I disagree with and I was just irrelevantly questioning him (though your statement "You might want to read fascism" is a little rude? I dunno). I just personally just dont like Israel of all countries claiming it is less fascist than its neighbours, who are often at least pseudo-democratically put into power, and it is a matter of opinion whether they follow ideas of corporate rule ('true facsim' by Mussolini's ideaology, the man who coined the phrase), and whether they are agressively militaristic or simply defensively militaristic as Israel claims to be. Its the kind of guys like this guy above me 'Shysic' who I think justify some of my opinions that Zionism is facism, as by your post I detect a strong sense of Zionism, but also a type of fsacism in your speech: 'anti-semitic' does not mean 'hatred-of-god' no matter the type of indoctriantion they might hose you down with in Israel, you can probably know that on a theological intellectual level. Anti-semitic, means anti-semitic, which has been made to mean anti-Jewish, if you would consider being anti-Jewish being the same as anti-God then I think that might justify my opinions about fascism and Zionism. I am not anti-semitic, but your termanology seems to be clearly anti-semitic in the way I would like the word to be used, in racism to the descendants of the aramaic races which origniated in the region of Israel, Arab and Jewish. Your idea of 'apatheid is justified' is absurdly neo-facist/Zionist in its nationlistic wording, and your claims are frankly ignorant. You make it sound like the Jews inhabited Israel from 3000 B.C.E to 1948 without any change,and that the arabs suddenly immigrated there in the last 50 years, in fact it was the Jews who were the 'terrorists' of their time, and often described themselves as zionists (the terrorists that is), who were the ones who mostly killed the British soldiers maintaining the mandate of Palestine for the purpose of creating a Jewish state. The arabs laregly lived in peace with the Jews for the majority of the last 1000 years, it was us in the west that were the persecuters, originally the influx of Jews to the mandate of palestine made most of them illegal immigrants, despite the gradual process of changing Palestine into 'a state for the Jews to live in'. Your reasons are offensive, considering that the arabs laregly worked to protect the Jews from the holocaust, within palestine and without, and did 'not kick you out' simply because they were arab states, but you imply because Israel is a Jewish state it has the right to 'kick arabs out'.

One more thing I want to criticise your theological reasoning again, not just because your religious opinions have no place in wikipedia (I'm a christian, oh my gosh Ive said it), many Jews consider the argument to go and live in Israel theologically unjustified at best, blaphemous at worse. Apparantly you guys were emant to wait until the coming of the messiah who would lead you back to Israel, which you did not, thus your relious reason is shaky at best for being the sole 'owners' of Israel, as I think the land ofIsrael in Judaism is often meant to refer to a type of ehaven (correct me if I'm wrong) whch it hardly is at the moment, everything would be fine as soon as you got there. Im not insulting your religious beliefs, but dont try using that Zionist crap on me, if everyone used that argument the chrisitinas AND the muslims would both have entitlement to Israel, seeing as the Chrisitans and muslism both see themselves as descendants of Abraham, and Moses, who led them to Israal. Therefore we all have been 'given Israel by God' if you look into our scriptures, so the argument of it solely belonging to the Jews is just one that would be used by a religious Zionist who 1. wishes to find some theological reason to justify their return to Israel 2. believes that none of he other religions in the world deserve a say (therefore God would oppose wikipedia's policies and therefore commit a sin, which is an oxymoron). This kind of unjustified religious Zionism is therefore fascist, unlike many current countries, because being a UK citizen dosent mean that our sovereignty allows us to beat up and expel legal immigrants. Neither does Israel's sovereignty allow it to expel and commit racism (which often it would deny, but you seem to be admitting) against arab citizens, who had in fact not immigrated, where as the Jews HAD immigrated there in the last 50 years. It seems ironic that it is an Israeli such as yourself that seems to justify my claim that Zionism is facism.

I know this was completly off topic, and unless people have something to say explaining what they said further, I dont think there is really any need to go any further. Im sorry I went off on a tangent, I just dislike any race of religion being insulted, or hypocrisy, especially by people who I assume are from a state which is meant to be for the protection of those who have suffered the same.A dime a dozen 18:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to address each point, although no promises are made. 0. disclaimer: I'm a human being just like everyone else, therefor my opinions represent myself and none other. 1. since I only represent myself you cannot use my opinions as justification for calling Zionism fascist. 2. I do not associate myself with any Zionist movement, and I think they are all wrong since they don't stick to Jewish law. 3. antisemitism is but a name, and a wrong one. if you want we can call them amalek. I believe amalek are people who hate god and through him his laws and people. they want no remnant of any of the above 3 left in the world. if you feel more comfortable with calling it "hatred of the god referenced in the bible" or "hatred of the god the jewish people believe in" or something of the sort, thats fine with me. if you want me to drop the subject, thats fine with me. but I will not yield without being won over by logical reasoning that proves my view is false. 4. I have not been "indoctrinated" or anything of the sort. I came up with my ideas on my own through study, logic and reasoning. 5. no, I consider being anti-jewish the result of being anti-god. 6. I don't see how #5 justifies calling Zionism fascism, even if you were right. 7. like I said, antisemitism is the wrong word to describe this hatred. 8. I don't understand what you mean by "but your terminology seems to be clearly anti-semitic in the way I would like the word to be used". 9. Judaism doesn't recognize the concept of a race, and neither does I. It does recognize the concept of a nation, which has little to do with biology. that is to say descendants of the same people tend to form the same nation, but not all descendants must belong to that nation, and not all members of that nation are descendants of the same people. 10. if your referring to the definition of who is a Jew, than again there is no racism involved. 11. it is within the context of suicide bombers and the like. if the enemy can't reach you, he can't harm you. I am only saying this about a time of war, and only when using it can save lives. right now it can't. looking for practical solutions that do not violate Jewish law isn't fascist. if it can save lives, then it doesn't violate jewish law. right now I think it shouldn't be used because it is not needed. 12. the Jewish people came into existence approximately 3320 years ago, and inhabited the land since approximately 3280 years ago till today. any other impression is wrong, regardless of who made the mistake. it is also completely irrelevant so I don't think I would have brought it up. 13. I don't remember saying any such thing. in any case, it is again wrong. perhaps this and #12 are references to something someone else wrote? 14. the question of jewish terrorism is irrelevant. I do not know or care whether those actions were terrorism. again, perhaps your confusing me with someone else? 15. I'm going to skip to the next thing I believe I wrote. 16. wrong. the state of Israel has the obligation to expel residents, and perhaps citizens, who rebel against it. (to be continued). Shyisc 18:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

1. the separation between reliogion and life is a western thing, not a jewish thing, so your definitions are irrelevent to judaism, although perhaps not to wikipedia. 2. "many jews..." a. the large majority think otherwise. b. who are you to into inner jewish arguments and decide whose right? I'm not deciding whose right, I'm deciding what I think and follow. 3. again, minority opinion. mimonides says that king messia will bring all the jews back to the land of israel, build the temle on the temle mount and wipe out amalek, if we don't manage to do it on our own befor his coming. he also says we have the obligation to settle, develop, and have sovereignty over the land of israel. 4. I don't think even those who believe in waiting go so far as to deny the words of god that say the land is ours. 5. no two nations can have the same homeland at the same time. Israel is ours for eternity, thus no one else can ever own it, only unjustly hold it. 6. no, it refers to actual land. its the christian thing to take all that god said and say it has no real world meaning, only a spiritual one. 7. doesn't say that all would be fine as soon as we get there. I think its mimonides who said that all that separates us from the end of days is lack of independence. but the world will go on as usual. 8. it's not zionist crap, its the laws given by god, and we must obay. 9. it has nothing to do with being descendants, and as I said, not all descendants belong to the same nation. the jews muslims & christians are not all the same nation, and the land was only given to the jewish nation. also, if they did lay claims, we wouldn't argue (or shouldn't) about the claims, we'd defend our land cause god told us it is our and that we must hold on to it. 10 christians and muslims do not belong to the nation of israel, therefor the promises made to the nation of israel do not apply to them. 11. we don't need to justify returning. we are performing our obligation. those who refuse to obay god need to justify themselves. 12. it's not that they don't deserve a say (which I guess is true. thanks for pointing may attention to it.), it's that the laws were already given and other laws are irrelevant to them. you probably won't see a difference. also, this isn't democracy. we follow the law given by god. if people think they should have a legal right to perform some crime or other, it's still a crime. 13. beating up? who got that idea in your head? and what does it have to do with your geographical location? we have the obligation to expel non-citizen rebels. this is god's law. 14. what I say refers to anyone, not just arabs. if I mentioned arabs, then its because they are a relevent current day example, not because I have anything special against arabs. indeed, youd never here me say "all arabs are enamies" because there are exceptions and sayiong "all" leaves no room for exceptions. you could here me say "arabs are enamies", because it referrs to arabs as a whole, not to each and every individual, and leaves room for exceptions. 15. I don't think it commits any racism. and I'm glad it doesn't since racism is on the short list of things I loath. there is nothing I hate. I am not satisfied with violations of laws against selling the land of israel to people of other nations, but that has naught to do with race since anyone can become a member of the nation of israel, if they truely want to. like I said, Judaism doesn't recognize the concept of race. 16. wha does they date of the begining of the more massive return have to do with anything? it's irrelevent to our rights and obligations over the land. 17. baseless. you just want to call zionism fascist, and are grabing at straws to support your claim. 18. again, has nothing to do with race or religion (both concepts are alien to Judaism). 19. I'm no hypocrit, although you seem to take a view of the Jewish people that supports them as hypocrisy. and perhaps its also because my views are not simplistic. 20. it is meant for a lot of things, but its a Jewish state. thats whats important. 21.if you mean the arabs are going through a holocaust, then you should aim the accusations of hypocricy at yourself. by accusing your victim (of the western civilization as a whole) of performing your own crimes your concience can get an easy out. this is hypocricy since a. what we do now has nothing to do with what you did to us. b. we are in no way performing a crime. Shyisc 19:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)