Talk:Shou Shu

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Can anyone verify these claims as anything but heresay?

Michael Board Low Purple Belt, Shou Shu


Yes they are all true.I have went to a Dojo in my city of Indio and have asked these questions.My Shi Fu says they are all true.

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But he who heeds counsel is wise.

It is a proven fact that Al and Ralph received their black belts under Richard Lee in the Tracy Chinese Kenpo system. http://www.bokfudo.com/HallOfFame1960s.aspx

It is proven fact that Al Jr received his black belt under Richard Lee in the Bok Fu System. http://www.bokfudo.com/HallOfFame1970s.aspx

If this was a court of law. With your Shi Fu on the stand how many of the Shou Shu claims could be confirmed, or would it all be listed as hearsay.

For your Shi Fu to say anything else, he would be admitting he has also been decived,and would also have to say good bye to your money.

Common sense, if even a few of the claims were true, Mr Moore would have been known through out the martial arts world! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudeawakeing (talk • contribs) 17:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


Shou Shu is a brand of Kempo derived from Tracy Kempo. But as if mullets are not bad enough, the guy behind Shou Shu, "Da'sifu" was an egomaniac and probably compulsive liar. And took silly looks to a whole new level. The originally called "Moore's karate" has become "Shou Shu". He made up a completely non-credible story that made him out to be some sort of Triad gangster and "real" fighter in China etc. He told stories about multiple attackers etc that although cannot be proven either way, are extremely far fetched.

Somewhere along the line the myth grew up within Shou Shu that it is the best martial art etc. I mean, along with sy Wing Chun, the Shou Shu community is really high on the superiority complex rankings. There seems to be the genuine belief that a Shou Shu practitioner is superior to black belts in other arts and can fight multiple opponents with relative ease.

Add to that comical obsession with interpreting animals, like using which animal forms some sifu knows as a pissing contest between split lineages "your sifu doesn't even know Mongoose style so there!!!!", it all makes for an extremely silly art.

Then add the incredibly insular culture of the art - these guys really rise to the bait if you try to discuss the silliness of their art. Some might even describe it as "cult-like". I was banned from their forum just for asking some straightforward questions. I've witnessed their zealotry on MAP, Tung Fu and Bullshido, so I've seen a lot of the crap they talk.

Look. You can talk all the crap you want, but I've seen this style in action. Some Shi Fu's dont know mongoose or any any animal above because they haven't reached that rank. Anyways, I've studied this style and it's not easy. It's easy to learn the moves but to master them and get the stance and perfection is dificult as you climb in rank. It might be silly to you but to me it's something weird. It's wierd because I saw Da Shi Fu do a move once and he literally moved like the wind. He did a move on a person and person literally flew off the ground because Da Shi Fu has incredible chi. To you it might be silly but to others it's serious. Yes your right, they do get mad when you ask straight forward questions and ban you, but you gotta understand, to some of us this is alright, were okay with it and were willing to take hits and kicks just to learn. Not all Shi Fu's are silly. I had a Shi Fu and he was as coolest as can be. He taught me all the way to blue belt. Later I had another Shi Fi but he was psycho. It all depends on the teachers attitude. Not all Shi Fu's are the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.14.129 (talk) 04:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

How good a martial artist Mr. Moore has never been the question, the history of Shou Shu and the claims of Mr Moore is a different question.(Fact) Al and Ralph learned Chinese Kenpo in the late 1960's. Verified by Al Tracy, Steve Labounty,Ted Sumner, Brian Hawkins and Richard Lee. Al Moore Jr learned Bok Fu under Richard Lee and trained in American Kenpo under Steve Labounty.

These men say they had no knowledge of any MA that Al had prior to Kenpo 
Mr Sutherby was there when Al mixed the three MA's in the 70's for shou shu.
Shou Shu match the techniques of Bok Fu, Tracy's kenpo,and American Kenpo. 
We have no Shou Shu student that predate the mid 70's.
We have a mix of Japanese and Chinese words in the Shou Shu system.
We have a photo of Al Moore in a Kenpo Gi with the Parker Flame patch. 1976.

This means that Shou Shu is only thirty one year old. unless Moore was teaching Shou Shu in a Karate Gi!''''1976 interview. I Could go on, but why? (Love the Chinese Dress with the Karate Belts). All this information can be verified with phone calls!! Now we have Mr Moore's story.'

Chinese Maifa
Trained in China for two and a half years.( After WW2,and before Korea)
Chinese Kung Fu master in twelve years 1940 to 1952, 1976 interview.  
Only Kung Fu recognized in China.
Shou Shu recived a Scroll from the Peoples Republic of China, 
If Al Moore's time line was true of becoming a Kung Fu master in China 
in the late forties, this would make him the youngest Kung Fu master in
history! at around 23, 24 years of age, not bad for a white American!

Now who's talking crap, the above information came from martial artists, most very famous. Guess they are all just talking crap. Guess Richard Lee just listed them on his black belt list for the heck of it.

In 1967 Richard Lee started his own system Bok Fu, a mix martial art,with the core being Tracy/Parker system. Al and Ralph had already earned Black belts under Richard Lee in thr Tracy's Chinese Kenpo, While Al Jr was earning his black belt in the Bok Fu system, Al and Ralph decided to do the same thing that their instructor Richard Lee had done, except for not giving the men thay trained under the respect of acknowledgement,(Big No No in the martial arts) and started the Shou Shu system, a mixed martial arts system, now having Tracy/Parker and Bok Fu Kung Fu systems to work with. Sorry no training with Chinese masters nor gansters in US or China!!

Good or bad, this is the history of Shou Shu!'


Im not saying weather the history is good or bad. All im trying to say is that its a good style. I'm not saying that Al Moore claims are true or not. I was sayin that some people complain about teachers.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.14.1 (talk) 03:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

What upsets martial artists is when people like Shun Shifu M. from the Indio school (Listed at top of the page) tells his student Michael that all the claims are true. Now we have two choices Mr M. really believes the Shou Shu story line, or he knows he is passing on the Shou Shou bullshido. This would apply to all Shou Shu instructors that pass these claims to their students. And as far as Shou Shu as a art. You will find (wasted Motion,center line concept, heel toe, etc) all in the parker books. Mr Moore created the name Shou Shu and the BS story,the rest is just a mix of the system's listed above! Maybe a great mix,(again maybe) but just a mix.

maybe it is a mix. I do shou shu and i agree. Lower ranking instructors are better than higher ranking instructors. Higher ranking instructors are into the Shou Shu bullshit. Lower ranking ones just teach and aren't as bitchy as higher ranking ones. Yes it's true, it might be a mix art, but it helps me stay fit and keep a healthy life. I don't realy do it for the self defense, I do it because it keeps you realy healthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.14.129 (talk) 05:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello, and thanks again. I have messaged you before. I started with the moores organization in the mid 1970's and spent many years in their "cult". I was a black belt under Al sr. You have really nailed these guys and brought to light most of their bs stories. It still amazes me however how they can suck in so many people with the same bs- Then have their students work countless hours for free!! teaching their asses off! Unreal I say. These clowns have I think thirty or so schools. (mcdojos) Makes me sick.

Anyway sorry for the rant but I appreciate your time spent exposing these A-holes. It'd be fun to chat sometime.

Salute

Thank you so much for your post and web blog on the origins of Shou Shu. Years ago, I studied directly under Ralph Moore along with his son Rusty and daughter Kelly, and with Rusty received my black belt. Many times, I had discussed the issue of the origins of Shou Shu with Mr. Moore who had said that he originally studied Kenpo and showed great respect for Ed Parker. He said that his brother Al had gone to China to study 'Shou Shu,' to the northern city of Tian Jin.

Years later, I too travelled to Tian Jin, but not to study martial arts, but Mandarin Chinese, as well as to teach English at a university. During that time, I attempted to learn more about the origins of Shou Shu. I would discuss certain words with people, whether they were 'Shou shu' or 'dashifu'. Each answer, however, raised doubts about 'Moore's Karate'. No one had ever heard of 'Shou Shu' and as for the word 'dashifu' it appeared to be a miss application of 'shifu' or teacher/ master; the Chinese character 'da' means big, large, or great, while ‘shifu’ means teacher/ master. There was no specific word for master that separated a person from the common role of teacher. The word ‘shifu’ also should be delineated from ‘laoshi’ a title or honorific for a school or university teacher, while ‘shifu’ refers to someone applying a trade or skill, as in the English word ‘journeyman’.

As I reflected on these words, and my growing understanding of Chinese history and the Japanese occupation of Tian Jin during World War II, I realized that it would have been very unlikely for any westerner or even a native-born Chinese person to study martial arts during the period that Al Moore claimed. Of course, it is still possible that he could have passed through Japanese controlled territory and studied martial arts, ye as there is no collaborating evidence from other sources, it is unlikely. I am a university lecturer, I conduct a great deal of research, and it is the practice of my field, and those working with historical documents, to collaborate people’s stories. If we cannot confirm a story, then it remains an opinion.

In the case of Al Moore and the ‘supposed’ history of Shou Shu one would have to conclude that is his ‘opinion’ and while it makes for an interesting account, it cannot be verified at this time. I think your investigation has also shown a similar result; the documents that you have collected also relate the same conclusion.

However, apart from the ‘story’ of Shou Shu’s origins, as a former martial arts practitioner, I must comment that Al Moore’s martial art was certainly unique at a time when people practiced either hard styles like Tang Soo Do, which I studied prior to learning ‘Shou Shu’ or the soft Kung fu styles. Even when contrasted with Kenpo, Shou Shu shows marked differences in its application of ‘fluid’ movement, which may demonstrate a similarity with Tai Qi. Of course names of particular techniques were ‘borrowed’ but this does not mean that Shou Shu is the same as Kenpo, or even that Kenpo is somehow more ‘pure’ than any other martial art. All marital arts draw on similar body movements.

From my reading in Chinese, martial arts has always been re-developed or re-engineered to fit changes in society. Developers like Ed Parker modified early forms, as did Bruce Lee. Is it any wonder that Al Moore would follow their example and create a form that truly has unique, and yes, borrowed elements?

Practitioners have often weaved a combination of fighting skill with folklore and myth about their abilities. Martial arts are filled with ‘bullsh*tdo’ about their prowess, the speed of their strikes, the ability to move objects with ‘qi’ or ‘ki’. If true be told, any martial artist, including myself, would rather hold a gun in a fight. However, since Moore’s Karate is a business, as are all martial arts, one needs to create a desire for the product. The Myth that Moore’s Karate is ‘original’, that it can be traced by to China, and presumably the Shaolin Temple, creates a mystic that is enticing. People buy into this myth with their hearts and wallets and manufacture a community, not unlike a cult, which then attempts to evangelize other people into becoming members (See Apple Computer for an example of this).

Al and Ralph Moore are simply American businessmen who developed a great idea into a nice little enterprise. Who can fault them for this?

p.s. if anyone knows the whereabouts of Rusty or Kelly Moore, I’d love to hear about it.

The fact is Shou Shu is a copy of Richard Lee's Bok Fu Do, Not Mr Moore's brain child,
Techniques name's are even the same.http://www.kokarate.com/TechniquesC.html#top  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudeawakeing (talk • contribs) 23:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)