Talk:Shechita

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Contents

[edit] Major edit of last section to modify POV and other issues

I have undertaken a complete re-write to some extent of this last section, removing almost half of it. It still exists on other webpages actually at: [1] The section needs more references and more information. The issue of Shechita and attempts, some successful, to ban it are part of the European history and they have, at times, been wrapped up in other causes that have been either anti-Jewish or animal rights activism and these have engendered debates, for instance on why Hallal slaughter is allowed. THe section should present a history of these debates, strikes and legislation and it can be done in an NPOV manner. So by removing some of the POV comments and other comments that made no sense or will ill-placed, I have attempted to make this section better. I have provided additional references. But more are needed as is more information generally. If anyone has suggestions please leave me a note.Seth J. Frantzman (talk) 00:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In fact, the information already exists at Legal aspects of ritual slaughter, so why not include it as bullets on this article. (*) and then link to the already existing and more professional explanation.Seth J. Frantzman (talk) 00:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cruelty NPOV

While this page is informative, the last section about this practice describes it as cruel, which it may or may not be, especially in comparison to non-kosher, regular-practice slaughterhouses-it sort of contains weasel words, and violates a NPOV position. SaraK 08:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi sara, I see that you are new here - welcome to Wikipedia. The section is pretty well source and there are only a few "other Jewish groups" or the like which is not as bad of a weasel word as just "others". If you can find out which group in particular they were I would be great if you could add that to the article. I agree that there could be more on the defence POV, but they would have to quoted by notabled people, not just added. If you can find anything please feel free to add it. If you have any questions feel free to ask me on my talk page. Jon513 12:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


I propose entirely and simply deleting the "Animal Welfare controversies" section. This is an article about Shechita and should explain and define that. Very few (if any) topics are without controversy, and it is not desirous to explore every controversial viewpoint about every single subject on every single Wikipedia page. If this videotaping event is so important, it more appropriately belongs on an AgriProcessors page or a PETA page. BBODO 14:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The controvery that has caused the method to be banned in some countries is due to animal welfare concerns and this needs to be explained~in the article. // Liftarn

I agree that this part should be removed, since it not only leaves out findings about the negative consequences of stunning, it leaves in only the negative view of one slaughterhouse as if it were representative of all. Most bans spring from ignorance - this article seems to be joining in. FlaviaR 12:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The material under "Animal Welfare controversies" in this article: Shehitah is repeated in two other articles:

Bans on ritual slaughter (titled changed to Legal aspects of ritual slaughter), and Ritual slaughter. One place should be decided for this material thereby reducing Wikipedia space to one-third. Some of what is said in this section (Animal Welfare controversies) is questionable. RPSM (talk) 16:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I propose that this article be tagged as needing sources, either with the CN or Unsourced tag. Specific paragraphs which I think need sources are the first, second and third paragraphs. I would like to hear other people's opinion on this.Starwarp2k2 20:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll source it. hold off on a tag. Jon513 20:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC

Most of the stuff on shehitah is not sourcable because it is complete bunk. Shekhitah in itself has nothing to do with the command not to eat blood, but with the command, "You shall slaughter the way I showed you on the mountain." The pourging of blood is accomplished after the animal is dead in kashrus, and shekhitah does not require even one vein or artery to be cut. The only things that have to be cut are the food pipe and the wind pipe. If somebody has a wild technique to accomplish this without severing the arteries, he is completely fine and the animal is kosher. Undoubtably those things are cut, but its as a side point not as the object. The blood pressure dropping to zero in the brain bit is ridiculous as, like I said, no vein or artery needs to be cut for the shehitah to be kosher, only the two simmonim. The beginning of that satatement, about the object being to cut the majority of the veins or whatever is bunk. The object is to cut through most of the windpipe and foodpipe in large animals, and the majority of one of them in birds. Also, the last bit about the hindquarters doesn't belong in this article as that is called nikor, and has nothing to do with shekhitah. The bit about lungs is also a seperate matter called bedikah. Shekhitah is only the killing. Neither nikkor or beddikah are done in chickens or birds, for example. The part about the animal needing to be in good health is ridiculous, as one of the major sections of hilchos shekhitah is the Misukenes - an animal who's life is in danger. They may be slaughtered and are perfectly kosher as long as they demonstrate pirkus - the movement of one limb after the simmonim are cut. Lastly, the pain signal business is not accurate as the demonstration of some sort of movement after shekhitah is REQUIRED for the animal to be kosher, and shekhitah is not to prevent pain. Nobody knows the reason for shekhitah, and this is actually reflected in a halakhah of shekhitah, that we are forbidden to think of reasons for it as it is a halakhah given to Moses at Mount Sinai. (SImlah Hadashah Perek 23 sif 1) I'm sorry if I sound overly critical, but almost the entirety of the article is false, which is a unique accomplishment, but not entirely unique on Jewish articles. The Neturei Karta article is almost entirely fabrication. 88.154.158.42 21:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

welcome to wikipedia. Thank for you taking the time to write about what you think about this this article. Wikipedia is a wiki meaning that anyone can change it, and we encourage you to do so. The fastest way to make an article better is by clicking the "edit this page" tab at the top of your screen.
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Shechita is used in this article in the modern vernacular meaning "perparation of a living animal to eaten", including bedicaka, nikkor, kashuring, etc; not in the talmudic sence refering only to the acutal slaughter. If you can suggest a name that would be more appropiate I would support such an effort (renaming an article can only be done by someone with an account for a few day, so either make one yourself or ask on this page). The animal being in good health is, as I suspect you know, a translation of triefa. Granted that there is not a strict connection being triefut and health, it is not "complete bunk". If you want to expand it to explain all the laws of treifut go ahead. In fact if you want to change anything of the article please go ahead. Jon513 09:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jon513 and others. I wrote up an article I think is pretty accurate, I'm puting sources in now. I don't know how to put it somewhere where it doesn't appear on the page so you can add what you like to it before it end up on WIkipedia. I'd like to work with you, and I think we might have an article that could be a featured article if we work together on the talk pages to keep edit wars to a minimum. I'm a shochet, and must say, there are no accurate descriptions of shechitah on the net right now that I know of. Ths would be a good accomplishment for WIkipedia. I think the Major danger to the article is people from Progressive sects of Judaism getting mad at the description of what is required for shechitah and editing it to be innacurate, so we may need to discuss a way to have their views on the matter also included, but separate from the body of the description since most people wanting to know about shechitah want to know about shechitah as it is required to be done by the Shulchan Aruch and ancient sources, and the way it is done in modern shleucht houses. Its also that people might want to know the progressive views, so maybe a seperate section with the title Non-Orthodox views, or something so there opinions are expressed accurately, but nobody gets confused and thinks they are followed in the Shleucht hauzes. Any ideas? Shia1 17:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

OK Shia, I've added a section for you to fill. I am not a shochet, not do I have kabbala on shechita, although I have shechted (3 roosters using Acherim omed al gabov) after the kollel I was in finished Hilchos Shechita.For a while I was chazering with the Simlah Chadasha, but that was years ago :(. Your expertise will be greatly appreciated. -- Avi 17:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Avi. I'm having trouble finding sources describing the way shechitah is carried out in modern shleucht hauzes. I think we all know, as many of us have been inside and even worked in them, but I can't find any references. Do you know of any? 88.153.87.107 21:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

At http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/ you will find a video. // Liftarn
where are the halachot of shechita in the shulchan arukh? (there is an online copy here) Jon513 11:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Very beginning of Yoreh Deah Chelek Aleph (YD:1–28)-- Avi 12:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Most of what I was going to put in was from Simlah Hadashah and Maateh Asher. It would make the article a lot better if someone could put in sources straight from Shulchan Aruch and the Gemmorah Chulin. Anyways, I'm going to be in Ukraine until Monday, maybe after that I'll contibute something if nobody minds. I was wondering if anybody thought maybe bedikah needed to be a separate article. It's kind of complex to have in here. Maybe a real quick mention. What do you guys think? 88.152.11.86 01:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Quick mention. As should trebering have a quick mention. However, Bedikas HaSakin, Haschazah, Bedikas HaSimanim after Shechita all need proper mention. My Semicha bechinas are beginning to haunt me again (L'Da'avoni, It's been years since I have chazered these Halachos). Enjoy Uman ;) Kesiva V'Chasima Tova and a Gut gebentched yar. -- Avi 21:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I put in some stuff I wrote down. My sukkah's not done though, and I have to go work on it or appear lazy before the wife. I'll put some more down later, and add sources. Shia1 15:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted material

The Haluk Anil study's conclusion that bolt stunning does not slow exsanguination is a concern for halal slaughter, but not for kosher slaughter. The Jewish objection to stunning rests on the fact that an injured animal may not be slaughtered for food according to Jewish law. Flourdustedhazzn 00:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it should be in Bans on ritual slaughter instead. // Liftarn

[edit] Alternative names/spellings in English

I would think that there would be variant spellings of the word "shechita", as there are with most Jewish terms taken into English from Hebrew. I think it would be informative if someone were to add these alongside the name at the start of the article. Static Sleepstorm 10:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Some words are harder to transliterate than others. There does not seem to be any popular alternative spellings for shechita. Compare the results on google for shechita (~53,000), shehitah (625), and shekhita (300). If you can think of another alternative spelling, see if it has any hits on google and if it does be bold and put it in. (shechitah has 12,400 hits but that seems too trivial to include as an "alternative spelling") Jon513 20:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I reckon it is noteworthy that shechita is often spelled "shechitah", and will add it as an alternative spelling in the opening sentence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Static Sleepstorm (talk • contribs) 19:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

The correct spelling is shehitah. RPSM (talk) 04:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Why can't we adopt a standard transliteration such as the French wikipedia uses, and appears to be automated from Hebrew script? Two letters in Hebrew - heth and khaph have differt pronunciations and are both rendered as ch. While one variant of hebrew pronunciation - that used by speakers of Yiddish merges these, classical Hebrew scholars and Sephardim and Arabic-speaking Jews separate them. Transliteration systems should work so that the hebrew spelling can be readily divined from the transliteration as well as the correct pronunciation. Those who use correct Sephardi pronunciation or Yemenite pronunciation that corresponds most closely to classical hebrew retaining komatz and patah and distinguishing between khaph and heth are not helped by several variants when neither of these indicates either the original Hebrew letters or the correct pronunciation. I suggest following the French system and installing whatever software they have in the all the other languages in Wikipedia. Alternative spellings may be useful for searching in Google, but not for suppporting learners of Hebrew. Shehitah is not perfect as there should be a dot under the h or the h doubled to distinguish heth from hey. The French system has a double t to distinguish tteth from taph. Enthusiastic readers should be able to find a key to a transliteration system and be able to learn Hebrew spelling and pronunciation from it. La shehita ou she'hita (héb. שחיטה shəḥiṭta) désigne l'abattage rituel des animaux ... Swedish speakers read chevra as shevra echad as eshad, as French speakers would. RPSM (talk) 22:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gender of the shochet

The claim is made in Comparison_of_Dhabiĥa_Halal_and_kashrut that "any sane Jew" who is sufficiently knowledgeable of the procedure may legally perform shechita. Yet as is well known, at least in the last few centuries, the job is invariably done exclusively by men. This article itself makes this assumption by using the term "he" in several places. Is there any authority for forbidding a woman from becoming a shochet? Rpresser 18:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Chaval that I do not remember this on the tip of my tongue, but I believe the first tosafos in Chulin discusses this. -- Avi 19:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

it is the first sif in shulchan orech. women can shecht but we are noheg for them not to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.157.148 (talk) 15:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I added the source there. Jon513 16:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the very first tosefos in Gemorrah Chulin. Also, in Simlah Chadashah it mentions that at least according to Ashkenazim we do not allow women to shecht because they tremble and don't like to be yelled at either. We worry if they treifed up someone's 4,000$ cow they would just not say anything rather then get yelled at. He says b'di eved we don't even allow it anymore because she has transgressed two minhagim rather than just 1: she shechted without kabbalas shechitah (a license basically), and she shekhted as a woman. Having transgressed two minhagim it shows she's most likely a free thinker and we can't trust her shechitah anyway. 212.179.204.74 03:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, my stomach is thoroughly turned now. <unwatch Shechita and all other halachic articles> Rpresser 14:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

See more discussion below. IZAK (talk) 09:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

See my response below --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shechita qualifications

A question was posed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Shochet training and the discussion is worth reposting here as it applies. A not will be posted there that the discussion should continue here. IZAK (talk) 08:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Shochet training

At what age does the shochet (kosher-butcher) training begin? I know they are required to have a religious education apart from their butcher duties. I doubt there is a norm at which everyone begins, but I am interested to know if it takes places after someone graduates from Yeshiva or before. --Ghostexorcist 12:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Graduation from yeshiva? Are you using USA terminology?
To my knowledge there is no norm. JFW | T@lk 13:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

One cannot be a shochet before age 13, but I do not believe one even needs to graduate from a yeshiva (ie obtain Semicha). --Eliyak T·C 00:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ghostexorcist: The laws of shechita ("slaughtering") exist within their own realm of rules. In some ways it may seem that to be a shochet is "easier" than being a rabbi, and in other ways, it is a specifically more complex skill that requires the shochet to be both a reliable Torah scholar especially familiar with the laws of shechita through serious study and at the same time be fully proficient in a series of skills required to set up his chalef ("slaughtering knife") and in its exact maintenance, set-up, readiness, use and application. The shochet is also required to be a known God-fearing fully Orthodox Jew who is strict about all matters pertaining to his practice of Halachik Judaism. To be a rabbi only requires scholarship whereas to be a shochet it is not necessary to be ordained as a rabbi, but it is required that the schochet be a Torah scholar, who knows the laws of shechita, and is able to pass any inspection of his tools and skills at any time. Thus, semicha ("ordination") is not required to be a shochet. The formal qualification that has been required is called a k'tav kabbalah' ("letter of acceptance/qualification") from a rabbi or rabbis who are familiar and have practiced this field of Jewish law relating to shechita. But this is a good question because the Talmud in Hullin in the first Mishna states in a general fashion: hakol shochtin... ("All may slaughter, and their slaughtering is valid, except a deaf-mute, an imbecile or a minor...") and there are serious and very detailed discussions that are part of many rabbinic commentaries. Most importantly it is crucial to realize that the subject of animal slaughter in Judaism is related to the services and rituals conducted in the Temple in Jerusalem and is originally studied in that context and that is why Hullin is part of Kodashim. Kodoshim deals largely with the religious service within the Temple in Jerusalem, the Korbanot ("sacrificial offerings"), and other subjects considered or related to these "Holy Things". In the temple, as commanded in the Torah, mainly the Book of Leviticus, the kohanim ("priests") were slaughtering animals in order to offer them up as sacrificial offerings. And the priests were neither "rabbis" nor "shochtim" but their roles incorporated both functions. So the slaughter of animals within Judaism is quite a deep and complex subject. IZAK (talk) 11:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It's worth noting that, as IZAK points out, certification to be a slaughter is not a matter of Jewish law (Biblical requirements or rabbinic decrees) as such. Any such requirements exist by custom and are based on individual rabbis' and organization's views as to whether or not one is sufficiently learned, skilled, and reliable. In the days of the Temple in Jerusalem, a priest was not required to do the slaughtering, it was permissable for ordinary pilgrims, including women, to slaughter their own offerings, and there are various cases discussed in tractate Pesachim which involve pilgrams slaughtering their own passover offerings. Tractate Parah, for example, discusses a dispute about whether a woman can slaughter the Red Heifer. The skill to do this may have been much more widespread than today, connected to a time when a larger percentage of people raised and slaughtered their own food. However, the custom of having certified professional slaughters is an old one, and there are certification letters dating back to at least the Middle Ages. People raising and slaughtering their own animals for their own use is less common today but is still possible and as User:IZAK points out still legal under Jewish law. However, Orthodox Jews generally will not buy or eat meat slaughtered by someone without a guarantee of that person's reliability. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Additional comment: Jewish law also permits fathers to circumcise their own sons (see Brit Milah, and at ceremonies I've been to the Mohel asks the father whether he wishes to do it himself to ensure the father is voluntarily appointing the Mohel as agent. A mohel I know said a couple of times in his career the father said he wanted to do it himself at that point -- and although he strongly recommended against it he let the father do it, as Jewish law permits. Although I don't have information reliable enough to put in Wikipedia, these sorts of things do seem to happen at least occassionally. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that while the Talmud may discuss the suitability of anyone, including women, to be a "shochet" it does mean that the Talmud or any source in Jewish law or that classical Judaism were ever conceived, advocated or permitted Jewish woman to serve in this role. And since User:Shirahadasha mentions circumcision, a woman may perform that too, as the Torah records that it was no less than Moses' wife Zipporah who circumcized their son, after God almost killed Moses for delaying to do so, see Zipporah at the inn -- but that does not that the Torah means to set a precedent of any sort that women should go ahead and circumcize their sons or that Jewish women should be allowed to become "official" mohalot. In serious Torah study one must always be aware of the difference between a theoretical postulate and the creation and application of a practical law (halacha le'ma'aseh). IZAK (talk) 08:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The following book documents examples of shechitah certificates issued to women by medieval rabbis: Grossman, Avraham. Pious and Rebellious: Jewish Women in Medieval Europe. Translated from the Hebrew by Jonathan Chapman. Brandeis University Press, 2004. ISBN 1-58465-392-2 --Shirahadasha (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Josiah Berman, Shehitah, 1941 says that there were women shohtoth in one country - Italy and has an example of an Italian certificate.

I do very much like the system on the French wikipedia for Hebrew transliteration. it has a separate transliteration for each letter. Double t (tt) for teth, and t for taph and th for thaph (which Ashkenazim can mentally transpose to sof). That makes shehittah. It is automatic too. Can't that be a wiki standard for all languages in Wikipedia? Classical Hebreists (and Yemenites would also like to have a separation between patah and komatz, but you can't have evrerything. I think this is the best there is. See article shehita there. (They use the regular French spelling and then the automated version as a pronunciation aid). RPSM (talk) 13:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protect this article

I just removed a pornographic picture (vandalism). Perhaps this topic should be semi-protected.71.247.48.219 (talk) 01:19, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I cannot find any record of that in the history. Jon513 (talk) 20:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] added material

I have added some history of the bans on shehitah as well as removing some of the animal welfare controversy that was in the way. RPSM (talk) 04:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC) I will put in refernces later. RPSM (talk) 16:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)