Talk:Shapeshifting

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[edit] vague sentence about authors who write about transmogrification

This bit:

"Transmogrification is not a theme used several times in the Jerry Cornelius stories, and should be done in the worl of funcation in most of Jack L. Chalker's books. "

seems a bit incoherent, but I'm not sure how to correct it. Someone who has read the works in question may know what to say instead.... I will probably fix the bit about Chalker, as I've read some of his books, but leave the Cornelius bit alone, as I haven't read those stories. -- Jim Henry

[edit] Soul-stealing as transformation?

Shang Tsung, an evil sorcerer who steals the souls of his opponents upon defeating them in the Mortal Kombat video game series.

How does this connect with shapeshifting or physical transformation? --Jim Henry | Talk 6 July 2005 17:59 (UTC)

[edit] Kafka?

Someone deleted the reference to Gregor Samsa in The Metamorphosis. Why is that not relevant? Samsa is "not a shapeshifter" if you restrict that term to signify someone who can voluntarily change his shape or who regularly changes shape involuntarily, but should we restrict the term in that way? If so, we should delete or heavily edit several of the existing references to other stories and characters, and add another section or another article about physical transformation in general (not so restricted). --Jim Henry | Talk 6 July 2005 17:59 (UTC)

I'll stash the deleted paragraph here for convenient access when we decide to add it back:

The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka, in which the main character wakes up to find himself transformed into a large insect-like creature.
I agree, this is clearly relevant to "shapeshifting" - the term doesn't inherently specify whether it's voluntary or not, or whether it's a result of the shapeshifter's own ability or externally imposed. I'm adding it back. Bryan 7 July 2005 05:22 (UTC)
We're allowing werewolves, and their transformation is no more voluntary than is the fellow's in Metamorphosis; I agree that he should stay.
Atlant 7 July 2005 11:40 (UTC)

[edit] Manakeet?

  • Manakeet -- a mythilogical creature, usually present in modern day video game RPGs. Takes the form of a human who can transform into a dragon at will.
This may need to be rephrased; it sounds as though a majority of recent RPGs include Manakeeet characters. I haven't played many recent RPGs so I don't know for sure that this is false, but somehow I doubt it. --Jim Henry | Talk 00:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I checked out the Manakeet page on this site, and it would imply that Manakeets exist only in Fire Emblem: the Sacred Stones. If that's true, surely the entry belongs in the fiction section, not the myth. Or can someone provide evidence of pre-Nintendo use of the word?
Manaketes are only from the Fire Emblem series, for that matter the word Manakete is made up by Nintendo of America and doesn't match the original term (Mamkute), not that that matches any 'real' mythology anyway. --Dark Twilkitri 09:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
The "Breath of Fire" series has a main character who can do this. I don't think the term 'Manakeet' is ever applied to him, though. Maybe a term that's a bit more general? --Whynnd 09:33, 29 October 2006

[edit] Gender-Shifting

This page only mentions Human-Animal shifting, there needs to be more info about Male-Female shifting, which is a common mythological trait worldwide, and interesting in its own right. I had trouble finding any useful information on Wikipedia. There were only articles about transsexualism and sex reassignment surgery etc. which of course is a different thing. I don't know how common the word "gender-shifting" is, but it does at least carry some popularity in fandom circles. 惑乱 分からん 12:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone recently added something about gender-shifting in Greek and Norse mythology; anyone care to write something about the theme in modern sf/fantasy fiction, or computer games, or film...? --Jim Henry 18:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

This page is about fictional shape-shifting. There is no need for a separate page. Goldfritha 02:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


Which specific other page do you think this should be merged with? --Jim Henry 14:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


Shapeshifting fiction --Goldfritha 23:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, yes. I remember now and see that I suggested a merge myself back in August. I agree there is no logic to the current division. Maybe a more logical division -- either between two articles, or in sections within one Shapeshifting article -- would be "Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore" vs. "Shapeshifting in modern sf and fantasy"?
If we merge them, we could just move in the "Psychology of transformation fiction" section pretty much as-is to this article, then merge the most notable items of the lists in Shapeshifting fiction into the relevant lists in this article. Some of the list items in both articles are not very notable and could be trimmed or moved to a "list of shapeshifters" article. Does anyone object to this mode of proceeding? ------Jim Henry 22:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


While we're at it, maybe this paragraph (with slight edits) could be moved from Transformation Story Archive to the merged Shapeshifting article:

One may distinguish two broad patterns in the role transformation or shapeshifting plays in the stories in the archive. In some, an unexpected but welcome transformation (especially various forms of lycanthropy) plays a thematic role similar to the plot device of the protagonist being a commoner who finds out they are actually royal, or have unsuspected magical talent, or have some other wonderful secret destiny. In others, a transformation imposed from without by a hostile entity is a challenge to be overcome; the protagonist seeks a way to reverse the transformation and regain their original form. In many such stories, the final resolution involves the unwillingly transformed protagonist coming to terms with his or her new shape and turning it to their advantage rather than finding a way to return to "normal".

Those comments probably apply to the shapeshifting genre (if there is such a genre) as a whole, not just to the amateur shapeshifting fiction in the Transformation Story Archive. --Jim Henry 22:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say yes, except for one fact. Since the May 6 version when the merge tag was introduced the shapeshifting article has grown considerably larger. I have concerns that an article merging shapeshifting and shapeshifting fiction might be too large, especially if new information continues to be added. So my vote is no. One of the main reasons that any two pages aren't combined is that there is so much information on that subject that it is easier on users to treat different aspects in different articles. Blue Milk Mathematician 02:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


Different aspects in different article, maybe, but there's no rhyme or reason in putting some in "shapeshifting" and some in "shapeshifting in fiction" -- do you have any ideas about how they should be split up? Goldfritha 02:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggested a Shapeshifting article with "Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore" and "Shapeshifting in modern sf and fantasy" sections, and moving the less notable items from the several lists into a separate "list of shapeshifters in fiction" article. Perhaps it would make sense to have, instead, Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore and Shapeshifting in modern sf and fantasy as separate articles? Let's try the merge and see how long the resulting article is before we do that. --Jim Henry 16:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm fixing to go ahead and start merging material from Shapeshifting fiction into this article, and moving the less notable items from the lists into List of shapeshifters. --Jim Henry 14:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I've finished the merge. I merged the material about genres and themes, while moving most of the list of specific novels, movies, games, webcomices etc into the List of shapeshifters. The latter could probably stand to be pruned of its less notable items, and it needs to be better organized (I've made a stab at it but there's more to do). And maybe the most notable items should be moved/copied to this main article. --Jim Henry 14:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge? (discussion moved here from Talk:Shapeshifting fiction)

Should this be merged into Shapeshifting? Or should some of the material from that article be moved hither? --Jim Henry | Talk 21:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

There's not enough for two articles, I think. Also, while the shapeshifting one mentions involuntary transformations, both articles concentrate on those that are voluntary. Should the involuntary transformations be split off? Goldfritha 02:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Added a link to the list of shapeshifters, which I think makes the list here redundant. Goldfritha 17:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The other article has recently grown a great deal, and I'd advise against a merge. --Kizor 16:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It's growing, sure, but there's neither rhyme nor reason to why some things are in this article and some in others. If the topic needs to be split up, I think a more rational division is needed. Goldfritha 23:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
See the recent discussion in Talk:Shapeshifting. If no one objects I'll start working on the merge soon. --Jim Henry 14:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shape shifting for real?

Not that I want to sound like some cult extremist, but I would like to see some stuff on shape shifting in real life. I have seen documented stuff all over the web but none of it actually gives out clear information, without a price. Just something to think about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.114.141.8 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Popular media and gaming

More popular media and gaming overage required, look at warcraft 3's Night elf druids, cast's of bird and cast's for the bear druids who could change at will. Links to cenarius as well, the god of nature,change and druidic magic in old lore.

-Lewis

There are a fair number of gaming items in List of shapeshifters. Perhaps this article could stand to have an overview of how shapeshifting is used in games, how it affects their dynamics, etc.? I am not the person to write that, but if you take a stab at it I'll help edit it. --Jim Henry 17:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

  • http://transformationlist.com The Transformation Stories List (not updated recently)
  • http://tsa.transform.to Transformation Stories Archive (not updated recently)
  • http://tsat.transform.to/ Transformation Stories, Art, Talk (online magazine)
  • http://wikitherian.org/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Shapeshift Specialized definition on WikiTherian
  • http://www.tfcentral.com TFCentral - A portal dedicated to transformation. Hosting, forums, image gallery, story archives, and chat.
  • http://www.spiritualtravel.org/OBE/self.html The Fluid Self - Changing Identities During Spiritual Travel
  • http://www.jh-author.com/portal.htm Portal of Transformation - Site with sections on the folklore behind a number of different shapeshifters from around the world.
  • http://www.dogpawz.com/barken/index.html Stories set in fictional town "Barken, TX"
  • http://www.thesirensong.net/ The Siren Song - Started back in 1997 - this site is home to original TG transformation/shapeshifting art, comics and animated shorts.
  • http://www.makopictures.com/ Mako Pictures - A spin off from The Siren Song - this site is home to original TG transformation/shapeshifting independent live action movies.
  • http://www.jeannelaws.com/articles.htm Shapeshifters in Love - A series of articles about shapeshifting characters in romance and speculative fiction.

I don't see how any of these meet the criteria for external links. Anybody want to speak up in support of them? CovenantD 17:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Most don't for sure. Some may be used as references for the article. By the way, I have removed the links to all of them, to keep logs clear. -- ReyBrujo 05:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I reckon we should keep the links to the bibliographic sites, the Transformation Stories List and Metamorphose.org. The first is of much higher quality but hasn't been updated in some years; the latter is lower quality but is being regularly updated and is likely enough to improve some over time. We might keep a link to one or two representative story archive sites, but most of them should go. --Jim Henry 17:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed bit on characters who can control their shapeshifting

This paragraph doesn't belong (as is) in the section on "psychology of transformation fiction":

Some stories involve shape-shifters who can control their power. (For example Nymphadora Tonks and Sirius Black in the Harry Potter Series.)

Does anyone care to take a stab at writing about how the psychology or theme of the story differs when a character is in full control of the transformation as opposed to having it imposed on them from without, or having it happen spontaneously? --Jim Henry 17:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Length of article

After recent edits, the article is 34 kilobytes long. What can we best trim or spin off to a sub-article? Could the less notable of the many mythological shapeshifters added recently be moved to List of shapeshifters? Or could we move the whole mythological/folkloric shapeshifting section to Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore? --Jim Henry 17:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Shapeshifting in mythology and folklore strikes me as a good idea, because it's not just a list. Also splitting off the psychology, etc stuff to Shapeshifting in psychology or the like. Goldfritha 01:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I think Psychology of shapeshifting might be a better title than Shapeshifting in psychology, but otherwise that sounds good. --Jim Henry 18:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shapeshifting in Science Fiction, Especially the Amorphous Kinds

There is a whole class of Shapeshifter missing from this article:

Technological ones like the liquid-metal (some might describe the fictional technology as nanotechnological) T-1000 in Terminator 2 and the T-X in Terminator 3 movies or the Grey goo scinario Molecular nanotechnology out of control explored in the novel Blood Music, which takes the shapeshifting theme well beyond the anthropomorphic.

In turn, there is the shape shifter depicted in John Carpenter's movie, "The Thing", and "The Ancient Enemy" in the movie/book Phantoms, which is able to mimic any creature that it consumes. It might e argued that both creatures take inspiration from the the shapeshifting Shoggoth described in H. P. Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness":

"It was a terrible, indescribable thing vaster than any subway train – a shapeless congerie of protoplasmic bubbles, faintly self-luminous, and with myriads of temporary eyes forming and un-forming as pustules of greenish light all over the tunnel-filling front that bore down upon us, crushing the frantic penguins and slithering over the glistening floor that it and its kind had swept so evilly free of all litter." — H. P. Lovecraft, At The Mountains of Madness
"The shoggoths are the slave race created by the Elder Things. Before native life arose on the Earth, the Elder Things bioengineered the shoggoths to serve as living construction equipment. Being amorphous, they could take on any shape their controllers desired, making them very versatile within their aquatic environment. Though they could "understand" the Elder Things' language, they had no conscious minds of their own, obeying their masters only through hypnotic suggestion." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoggoth

This in turn brings us to consider totally non anthropomorphic, 'non-animal', 'Shoggoth-ish' shape shifters such as "The Blob" which never takes on any human or animal form but is able to change shape at will.

In this light, what also of the concept of the "body without organs" motif in the writings of post modern theorists Gilles Deleuze and [[Félix Guattari] and teh concept of "Abjection" as developed in the work of Julia Kristeva?

Then again, we might also consider the theme of shape shifting as it relates to contemporary body modification practices and transhumanism.

I would like to advocate for these to be dealt with in this article, though I would not know where to start. I think the article is excellent as is, but it's not complete since it lacks proper treatment of these contemporary shape shifters. I am willing to tackle the development of a new section, but I would like suggestions regarding how to work it into the existing article as I am less familiar with the shape shifters dealt with in the existing article and how they relate to the ones listed here.

Thanks. --Betamod 08:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "Mythology and Folklore" --> "Folklore" only?

Several references to "mythology and folklore" have been simplified to say just "folklore". Why? --Jim Henry 15:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odin's female form?

The Lokasenna doesn't seem to mention anything about Odin bearing female form, Loki just teases Odin that the practice of seidr itself is a shameful, unmanly behavior. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 00:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs moar genies!

Genies. They can shapeshift--78.89.25.55 18:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know of any connection between genies and shapeshifting. The wiki article doesn't mention anything except that they can "transform themselves into humans," but since they are spirits, I take that as being more the ability to disguise themselves. Can you give some examples and sources? Putrescent stench 21:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
[1] In here you can find some hadith that say genies can shapeshift into snakes and dogs, Those hadith might be have been forged but its still noteworthy in this article--78.89.25.55 16:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chitty Chitty Bang Bang

The magical car might not quite belong here, but if not where else? Springnuts 17:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)