Talk:Shall and will

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[edit] Shall

Shall is regarded as being a model verb which can only be used with I and We. However, by analysing the Corpus of the English language we can conclude it is used with other persons as well. For instance, in the lyrics to the song Moonchild, by Iron Maiden, shall is used with you (you shall be damned), conveying the meaning of a threat.

[edit] Not a Wiktionary candidate

I removed a {{move to wiktionary}} notice that had been placed here by Radiant. This page goes well beyond a dictionary definition and contains extended discussion in complete sentences that put it well beyond the scope of a dictionary entry. -- Smerdis of Tlön 13:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Well done, I back you on that. Radiant has also made vfd on what I regard as the very valuable article go (verb). If you agree with me, do state your views there. --Doric Loon 18:29, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree as well. This article is encylopedic. Perhaps Radiant could place a link to this article in shall and will's wiktionary entries instead? --Canoeguy81 22:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Engineering?

I have deleted the thing about engineers using the words 'will', 'shall' and 'must' differently from everyone else. It didn't make sense Oliverkroll 19:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Possibly refers to conventional usage such as defined by RFC 2119. However that only defines conventions for "shall" (and "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL") and not for "will". EdC 12:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


I have attempted to add a new section that more clearly explain the special uses of 'shall' and 'will' in the field of engineering. An article that discusses use of these words without at least mentioning their applications in system requirement documentation is seriously lacking. --Jpschaaf 04:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table

I created a little table to illustrate how shall and will are to be used. I think this is easier to read that the previous list (which didn't include 2nd person plural). Hope it helps. Naufana : talk 18:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should vs. shall in first-person offers

I was a bit surprised not to see (although perhaps I overlooked it) any mention of the common (American English) use of should to replace shall in the part of the article that discusses "first-person offers". Specifically, instead of "Shall I open a window?" I usually hear "Should I open a window?" Doug Pardee 21:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

To my (English) ears, those two questions have different meanings. The first is more telling someone what you're about to do, but offering the option of them suggesting that they open the window instead, or that the window shouldn't be opened. The second is actually asking for an opinion. Skittle 16:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The context is shall vs will. "Shall I open a window?" is an offer to help the other person. "Will I open a window?" is the simple future, as if the other person weren't there. It's thus an inappropriate response to "It's hot in here." I'm thus uncomfortable with the following paragraph, which advises never using shall if you don't understand the difference. Clearly this is an exceptional case where shall is better. --Sluggoster 09:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

As for shall vs should, my (northwestern US) ears prefer shall but the difference is very slight. Shall focuses on your magnimony, and you may already be half-standing when you say it. Should focuses on your social obligation, and you may have no intention of opening the window unless the other person says "yes". --Sluggoster 09:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "the useful contraction 'll"

the useful contraction 'll stands for both these modal verbs

I asserted this once elsewhere and was challenged to prove it; I found that the OED lists only 'll == will. If anyone can come up with a reputable source for 'll == shall, please list it. Marnanel 12:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Illegible

This article... wow. It's almost impossible to read. Half the examples are absolute crap and nothing even remotely resembling understandable English. This article needs an almost total rewrite. I think I'll try it sometime if nobody else wants to. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 07:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] defective?

Is it correct to say that because the future tense in English isn't a simple conjugation that it is "defective". If not someone should change the first sentence. 68.98.54.71 21:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks like this has already been changed. "Defective" refers to verbs that lack certain tense forms expected in the language. "Shall" and "will" are defective verbs because they lack certain tenses (*shalling, *I have should). "Defective" does not apply to entire grammar systems. In English the simple future form does not exist (unlike Spanish: será), but that does not make English defective. --Sluggoster 08:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Sensitive word'?

I'm not clear on how the following sentence is true, so I've removed it. "Shall is a sensitive word and should be used with caution."

142.157.208.111 (talk) 14:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some comments

A couple of places in the article (e.g)

It is doubtful if there ever a distinction in the language between "shall" and "will."

There was once thought to be a meaningful distinction between "shall" and "will,"

it is suggested that there is or has been no difference between will and shall. This is of course false. Speakers who rarely use shall would find the relacement "will" in a sentence such as "it will rain today" with "shall" strange ("it shall rain today"). These are not interchangeable words.

Also I think comment should be made on the use of "shall" in protasis. It's explained in Fowler's article on Shall versus Will. It's a slightly archaic usage, essentially where modern usage gives "If he should do it, it would be good.", or "If he does it, it will be good", or "If he did it, it would be good", or "If he were to do it, it would be good", or a number of different options involving "were" and "should" at the start of the sentence (incidentally I'd like to know what if any the difference in meaning between all these options are), the slightly archaic usage gives "If he shall do it, it will be good". This extends to other "if" like clauses, like "so long as the kingdom shall endure", where this is understood as meaning, "if the kingdom endures, then ...". Count Truthstein (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence

The entire discussion of shall/will seems to be based on bare assertion. The sources should go beyond reference to Fowler or Crystal. There must be a study which looks at actual (historical and present day) usage. I want to see it. Of course the fact that Americans, Scots, and Irish feel insulted at the suggestion that they don't get the subtleties hits a raw nerve (Americans, Scots and Irish secretly do have the feeling that they miss the subtleties and are speaking a foreign language). What is American/Scots/Irish usage of shall/will if they do not follow Fowler? As far as I can see apart from some 'polite forms' which are out of date, and a failure to recognize that "will" in the first person looks to the future as "a present state" while shall looks to the future as future, he is correct for English, Scots, Americans, and Irish usage (don't they realise?). Example: if if run the marathon, I will be exhausted. If I run the marathon, I shall be exhausted. The first imagines the "future present" state of exhaustion. The second imagines it as purely in the future. The first is more vivid and more used (Americans/Scots/Irish?). Neither is wrong. Or at least, don't other people have the feeling there is a distinction here that is never mentioned? But please - EVIDENCE Jagdfeld (talk) 12:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't quite see that distinction but now I see that there is a difference in that with "will" a present state can be indicated and not necessarily a future tense - e.g., in "I will sell you potatoes at £1 a bag" or "Mr. Blogs will help you fix your bicycle" "will" means more "is willing to" than "is going to". The title "The Man Who Would Be King" of the Rudyard Kipling story has a meaning close to "The man who wanted to be king". I too would like to see some proper study about this. It's a pity that Google gives this article as the number 1 for the seach "will shall", and much of the other search results aren't that informative either except for stating that the traditional distinction is baseless. Count Truthstein (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Attempt at explanation

  • When I say I shall be there I am looking at the event as future willy nilly (externally determined, my will not taken into account). When I say I will be there I am looking at the event as more vividly assured (the sense that my will is providing the assurance is close to the surface, or easily brought to the surface). Compared to shall which looks from the present to the future and emphasizes the gap in time (in I shall be there the being there is something still definitely in the future, not present), will (in I will be there) looks forward to the achievement of being there as more vividly assured.
  • When I say you will be there I am looking at the event as more vividly assured (although your will is not disregarded, the general sense of mere assurance is stronger. Probably historically the sense of your willing was primary, but because I cannot vouch for your will the sense of mere assurance - simple futurity - became more dominant). When I say you shall be there I am looking at the event as future willy nilly (externally determined, your will not taken into account). Because of the disregard of your will and because I am the person saying what will happen, it is easily felt as equivalent to my ordering/obliging you.
  • When I say he will be there I am looking at the event as more vividly assured (although his will is not disregarded, the general sense of mere assurance is stronger. Probably historically the sense of his willing was primary, but because I cannot vouch for his will the sense of mere assurance - simple futurity - became more dominant). When I say he shall be there I am looking at the event as future willy nilly (externally determined, his will not taken into account). The disregard of his will is easily felt as equivalent to my ordering/obliging him.

It is thinking along these lines, I think, that accounts for the 'curious' exchange of functions of shall/will between 1st and 2nd/3rd persons. I don't know whether this was the real psychology behind the development of usage. It is merely an attempt to help people see that it is not entirely illogical. Of course, the pragmatics of use (the context, politeness, whether I or someone else can be thought of issuing orders, etc) can help to decide which latent senses (will, obligation, order, fate, duty, simple futurity) are brought to the surface. Jagdfeld (talk) 11:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I always think it odd that the people who claim the distinction is baseless tend to think of themselves as descriptivists, yet they blithely claim that certain dialects are 'wrong' in hearing and using a distinction in word usage. In my dialect, there is a difference between the two words, and no number of academics telling me it's baseless or contrived will make me stop using the language I learnt in childhood. Next they'll be telling the good folk of Yorkshire that 'It were raining' is an artificial and incorrect phrase... So briefly, I agree. We need some more sources in the article; perhaps some good descriptive/observational language studies that looked at English usage? I assume such things exist... Skittle (talk) 00:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)