Talk:Serpent (symbolism)

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Contents

[edit] Cleanup needed

This page is a mess. The sections do not make sense. The New Testament is just as much Mythology as the other religions mentioned. The "Other Symbolic Uses" are also so connected with Mythology that is hardly makes sense to separate them. Since all serpent symbolism is mythological having a Mythology section is redundant.

The serpent occurs in so many mythologies worldwide and it's meaning has quite some overlap in the various cultures. The examples need some kind of structure (geographically and/or chronological) that would clarify that overlap. Now they are now just thrown in together in a jumble. It would be good to start the page with a section containing a general description of what serpents represent, a kind of structuralist distillation (a la Joseph Campbell) of the various mythologies.

Overall this article could do with a less Judaeo-Christian POV since the Genesis story is a variation of earlier Serpent myths, most notably Sumerian. --Tchoutoye 14:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok I've made a beginning with the cleanup. I've shortened the Christian sections slightly. Not because I oppose the content but because there was a lot of redundancy due to doubling of content. --Tchoutoye 20:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guinea worms

Though we all know about Guinea worms, I don't know where to begin to explain how this connection is impossible among early cultures never exposed to tropical Guinea worms. The misapplication of Hermes' cadeuceus to medicine is an interesting story in itself: see the article's Links:

"The symbols entwining the staff of caduceus are not serpents. they are a type of parasite namely the guinea worm. How these worms and the staff came together is the product of the cure applied by the mesapothemians to these worms.
In order to remove the worm from the body, it is coiled around a staff. More information can be found under this link:
http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/3_2SymbolsSnakesHealing.htm


Although (some) ancient people didn't make much of a distinction between snakes and worms it would be nonsense to state that the symbols on the caduceus are not serpents but guinea worms. --Tchoutoye 14:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serpent's information inaccurate?

I removed these two statements from the Hebrew Bible section: "And every word the Serpent spoke was in fact true. His information may be illicit, but it is not inaccurate." Genesis 3:2-4 says (NIV translation)

'2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."'

According to the text, their eyes were indeed opened after eating; however, the serpent also said "you will not surely die," which was a lie, as they did die after eating it (though their death was not immediate, it was certainly a consequence of eating the fruit). (WikiLad)

Patently a stretch. For God has said "In that day you will surely die." The Serpent knows better, and correctly informs Eve. Let us stick to the text, and be as frank as we are capable: this is not the Biblepedia. --Wetman 04:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The traditional judeo-christian religious interpretation of this passage sees this as a spiritual death that occurs immidiately, according to "God: A biography" by Jack Miles, 1995, p.32 of hardcover edition. To maintain NPOV standards, either remove this statement, or add a note regarding religous interpretation citing a source that is public domain. -Jadorno 06:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Yet the serpent's statement is much broader, failing to narrow it to death in the same day. Notice the context, in that Eve also fails to mention this same-day clause. I don't quite understand your 'Biblepedia' comment: if there's a statement in Wikipedia that's questionable based on the information surrounding a person or character, isn't it logical to search the source to clarify? The statement in question happens to have significant implications regarding the serpent's character. --WikiLad 03:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Wetman. God says "In that day you will surely die," yet Adam lives for another 930 years! Wikilad is incorrect when he says "though their death was not immediate, it was certainly a consequence of eating the fruit," because they weren't supposed to eat the fruit from the tree of life, which would have made them immortal like God. So, it isn't as if they were originally immortal and their eventual death is a consequence of eating the forbidden fruit. Eating the fruit from the Tree of Life would have been the only way for them to live forever, and it was prohibited. Winick88

[edit] serpent website unappropriate

the "serpent website" link seems unappropriate here (it refers to a music instrument, not to symbolism) — MFH:Talk 00:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] serpent in healing

I remember being told that the medical symbol of a snake wrapped around a stick actually comes from the piece in the Hebrew bible where a 'snake on a stick' was used to heal people (actually mentioned in the article). Is their any truth in this?

Likely so. See Numbers 21:8-9:

"8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

  • healing bronze serpent of Moses (John 3:14).
See also John Bathurst Deane, The Worship of the Serpent, 1833..
Serpents were also used in the Temple of Asclepius in ancient Greece for healing. The Rod of Asclepius (a snake curled around a rod) was so employed.
Today, the Rod of Asclepius is said to be the basis of the symbol you refer to: "Widely recognised uses include the logos of the World Health Organization, the Star of Life, and the American Medical Association." --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc 17:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norse Mythology

I added a bit about Jörmungandr the World Serpent to the article. JanderVK


[edit] Native American

That one refrence should be checked and the section needs re writing. Contrary to this article's view, the Native Americans didn't share one universal religion or belief system. If re-written, add what specific tribes believed what about serpents.

Xuchilbara 15:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Caducea.svg

Image:Caducea.svg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 13:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old Snake and New Snake

It is clear from the article that the Old Snake is Satan. However, the argument that Jesus Christ does not connect Himself with the Serpent, that is a biased argument in favor of traditional (mainstream) theology. It relies on no documentary proof, other than mere exhortation to the reader. The argument is begging the question. As such, it may be considered an ad nauseam if it gets repeated by Christian theologians, in lack of clear Bible quotes which would indicate that this is not the case. As such, it is part and parcel of propaganda for this or that church. What the Bible says is that Christ is the New Snake. In the Bible, the snake is a symbol of Jesus Christ. The lifted up Snake (Nehushtan) symbolizes the Redeemer. I think that in this matters, the letter of the Bible has absolute priority over sectary theology. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Our interpretations are often a great bore and never belong. The article should be reporting published interpretations selected to represent the mainstream in the history of ideas. "Right' and "wrong" of course are our own irrelevant feelings.--Wetman (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. The Bible offers absolute documentary evidence that the snake is considered by at least some authors of the Bible as a symbol of healing, of saving one's life from imminent death (Numbers 21:6-9). And the Bible offers absolute documentary evidence that saving one's life through looking at the bronze snake is similar (for the authors of the Bible) to the redeeming work of Christ (John 3:14), just as the sacrificial lamb from the Old Testament is seen by the authors of the New Testament as an archetype of Christ. In the Old Testament lives got saved through contemplating the snake, in the New Testament, souls get saved through contemplating Christ. You don't need a theological treatise to show this. It is reading 101: all you need is to read English properly and to have a copy of the Holy Bible. No more, no less. The Bible speaks for itself. The Word of the Bible has absolute priority over all theologies on earth. From a history of ideas standpoint, my point is already proven, beyond reasonable doubt: the documentary evidence for such ideas is already present in the text of the Bible. This is a fact, not an oppinion, mind you. It is a fact that such texts are present in the Bible, and this is enough documentary evidence that such ideas existed since thousands of years ago. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
In fact, another documentary evidence (2 Kings 18:4) shows that the idea of the redeeming/healing qualities of Nehushtan was at a certain time popular among the Hebrews, motivating them to burn incense to the snake of brass. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Eventually, we may reach a compromise solution by mentioning the following accurate factual and thoroughly verifiable information based on print-published works (the Bible): Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
According to the Gospel of John, 3rd chapter with verse 14, the redeeming work of Christ is symbolized by the serpent lifted up by Mozes in the wilderness. In the Old Testament, the Book of Numbers, chapter 21 with verses 6 till 9, tells the story that Mozes lifted up a serpent of brass in the wilderness, which saved many from imminent death just by looking at it. The Bible tells us that Mozes did this at the express commandement received from God. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deceitfulness

Italic textIn many western religions, serpents are connected with deceit, and are used to symbolize deceitfulness. An example is the serpent in the Garden of Eden, who tricks the Adam and Eve into partaking of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

That section is problematic. It clearly refers to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These are not western religions, if anything they are eastern (originating in the near to middle east). I briefly considered editing the article myself. My first instinct was to replace western by biblical. But that would exclude Islam I believe. Then I considered religions of the book (linking to people of the book), but that might be seen as an Islamic terminology. Actually I just found the correct link and will change the article appropriately. Abrahamic religion. Feel free to alter this if you can think of a better term and link. By the way, this article could use some sourcing, this particular section is as yet unsourced.--85.93.203.204 (talk) 13:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)