Talk:Serenity Prayer

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[edit] General discussion

I can find no evidence that Niebuhr was ever associated with the "Confessing Church" of German protestants during the Nazi era, nor the "Confessing Movement" of very conservative protestants here in the USA.

We accept things, not because we agree with what is done to us, but to free ourselves from resentments. It is for purely personal reasons. If someone wrongs me, I accept that there is nothing I can do to change the past and nothing I can do to change the kind of person he is. I accept not for any benifit to him but simply to give myself peace of mind. I can however change my thoughts, behaviors, and actions, regarding the way I react to harms that are done to me. 207.157.121.50 07:36, 6 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey

My take:

I know when I suffer - I am unhappy when the person or thing I want to change won't change to satisfy me, and I can find no peace until I get the change I want. But that is my false belief. It amazes me that at the moment I surrender and accept that I cannot make them change, I find the peace I was looking for. I also see the potential for loving what is, for loving without wanting anything, for loving without conditions.

My false belief, that I am right about how they "should" be, gets in the way of seeing them how they are, and of seeing my own true nature. By inquiring into this belief, my lesson is that they were never the problem, it was only my thinking all along. When I changed my thinking, my whole world changed, and it got a lot more peaceful. That is the wisdom I now have, and I will never go back to believing the lie.

64.169.6.44 05:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)12 June 2007 CHOPS

A friend of mine recently cited this quote in response to a question I posed for him. He made the quote inaccurate, and later identified that to me as a "senior moment." I refuted his supposition that he had it wrong, and believe that instead what he wrote was superior:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; Courage to change the things I can; Discernment to understand the proper course of action when the occasion arises; and, Wisdom to know the difference.

I think it may need some tuning, but the concepts presented here introduce discernment paired with courage. We may have the courage to know we need to act, but it takes discernment to know what to do with the courage. Thoughts? Vexar theoriginal 13:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's my take on it: In this prayer, we are simply asking God to help us accept the past; in other words, not to cry over spilled milk. What's done is done, and from there, we ask God to give us the courage to face our problems head-on: to move on, change what we can, and correct situations that can be corrected. In the third sentence, we want to be given the wisdom to know the difference between the things we can and can't change.

A looser version might read as follows:

God, grant me two gifts: serenity to accept and learn from the past which cannot be changed; and courage to change what I can and move on. And may I gain the wisdom to know which of these two gifts I should use.

As for what Vexar posted, I do like it, although it is redundant. The phrase and the wisdom to know the difference means that we are asking for the ability to discern between what we can and cannot change. MplsNarco 11:34, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SP origin

I find it interesting that the Serenity Prayer origin at Alcoholics Anonymous predates the claim here. Any comments? Rfrisbietalk 16:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have now thoroughly documented the origin of the prayer. The earlier version of this page was an amazing mess of urban myth and total confusion. Some of it was even comic: the page included the demonstrably false claim that F. C. Oetinger wrote the prayer - and cited as an authority for this a German page that demonstrates that F. C. Oetinger did NOT write the prayer! (The editor who added this obviously was not able to understand the German page.) SerenityPrayer 14:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unlisted Allusion

Olivia Newton-John's album "Stronger than Before" has a very nice extended version of the Serenity Prayer on the last track called "Serenity".

Have added it on the basis of this report. Macspaunday 16:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the origin of this, but..At our 12-step meeting we read the ENTIRE Serenity Prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will. that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen Reinhold Neibuhr 1926

Everything after "the difference" is not by Niebuhr, but seems to have been added sometime after the prayer began circulating. The 1926 date is definitely wrong. The full story is in Elisabeth Sifton's book cited on the main page. Macspaunday 16:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boethius

The spurious accounts section describes Boethius as a "stoic philosopher." Stoic should be capitalized, but I don't believe Boethius was a Stoic. The Wikipedia article on Boethius describes him as a Christian philosopher. rkharrison

Quite right. Done. Macspaunday 18:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he was just very stoic. After all, he did stick to his faith in the face of death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.179.21.221 (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] An Interesting Notation/Site

I found this here http://skdesigns.com/internet/articles/prose/niebuhr/serenity_prayer/

Where they talk about many people researching this, but they have references to books, etc. about the prayer and that his 'daughter' even has the 'full prayer' on a page in her book.

I was wondering if you guys could look into this and see if any of this may be needed or added to the article.

Thanks much! Ariyen (talk) 12:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor edits??

There seemed to me to be some inconsisteny in the article as it attributed the prayer to Niebuhr AND stated that Niebuhr attributed it to others (though without a solid reference being given) AND that there is evidence that it predated Niebuhr (the photos of the lodge and the Mother Goose "version"). I can find no mention of Dr Sasser and his photos (again, no reference is given) nor of The Grapevine in Wiki. I've also changed the word "spooking" to "spoken" as it is surely a typo!

I haven't tried to get to the bottom of this, but instead I have taken the easy way out and simply edited the structure of the article in a way that reflects the various possibilities and debunked claims presented. It was either that or delete the contradictory material which obviously I'm not in a position to do.

LookingGlass (talk) 17:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Raeding more closely the article is riven with this dispute, centering as it does on the 1950 article, for which I've provided a link. The result is that the SAME reference ends up being used as confirmation that the original was Niebuhr's AND that he himself says that it isn't. I'm trying to join the AA to get access to the articles and sort this out but at the moment it won't take my credit card!!!! Grrr 84.249.205.20 (talk) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The AA have now posted me both the articles. Niebuhr was in regular contact with the AA but the articles aren't a lot of help and I'm trying to get primary source data from them. I've added a bunch of other references including to the "alternative" theories and in particular regarding Dr Sasser. I've made enquiries of Cincinatti. There appears to have been a deliberate attempt to distort this article by truncating a quote of Niebuhr's. I have edited the article to contain the full quote and reorganised the text accordingly. Hopefully all this will at least give a reader an overview even if it remains a bit of a mess. If I get any more info I'll input it. I've also corrected the vague reference to the origin of the SP with AA from their own records.
LookingGlass (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The Mother Goose version simply points out that the substance (but not the form) of the prayer has at least one literary parallel, which is unsurprising and doesn't diminish the interest of Niebuhr's version. It would be interesting to find others. --Macrakis (talk) 22:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Another literary parallel is found, perhaps more succinctly than the original in "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you might find you get what you need" - this incompasses the immutability of inaccessible desires (and by implication, the need to accept this), and the need to step out and try sometimes anyway. Of course, it doesn't say much about wisdom, but wisdom has fallen out of favour these days anyway.

I wonder if the well-known spoof "Grant me the serenity to accept what I can't change, the courage to change what I can, and a big bag of gold"[citation needed] warrants a mention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.179.21.221 (talk) 16:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)