Talk:Serb clans

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Contents 1 About irrelevant tribes (Albanian, Old Montenegrin etc.) 2 Why??? 3 --- 4 This is too Serbocentric article 5 Shameful article 6 Rename the article to "Bratstvo and Pleme in Montenegro" 7 What parts of Herzegovina have Plemena? 8 No, no, no 9 Zbor 10 ...Try to understand 11 Please try avoiding politics 12 More on terminology 13 What I don't like... 14 Drobnjaci 15 My Theory 16 Stop the propaganda 17 Malesia/Malsija clans 18 Montenegrin clans 19 Question 20 SERB CLANS? 21 Highland Tribes and Drobnjaci 22 Requested move 22.1 Survey 23 Article title 24 SERBIA WIKIPROJECT?!?!

[edit] About irrelevant tribes (Albanian, Old Montenegrin etc.)

This is not an article on Albanian Clans in Montenegro or ALL the tribes (plemena) living in Montenegro. This article is about Serbian Clans in Montenegro. Therefore, please stop adding Albanian Clans into it. Create a separate article if you wish. Regarding the rest. Seven Highland Clans are Serb Clans (in majority they declare themselves Serbs) but including also Old Montenegrin Tribes in this article is unwise. After all most of them do not consider themselves Serbs! Regardless of your opinion on Montenegrin enthnicity, clans that do not declare themselves Serbs should not be here.

There should be a separate article on all Montenegrin Clans. In such an article we could include all Albanian, "Montenegrin" and Serbian clans living in Montenegro.

In this article, called "Serb Clans", I strongly recomend leaving only actual Serbian Clans i.e. Highlanders, Tribes of East Herzegovina etc.. Otherwise, IMHO this article will always not only be POV but also simply incorrect. Thus, I am removing Albanian Clans (it is obviously an irrelevant issue to the theme of this article). Still, I have left all the other questionable clans. I know it is a touchy issue so lets discuss what to do with the Costal Clans, Clans of Old Montenegro etc.

Nikola 217.153.207.18 (talk) 13:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not true that entire clans would declare their ethnicity in a same way (that is, either Montenegrin or Serbian). This article is about the clans of Montenegro and the Montenegrin Littoral, Old Herzegovina and Albania, which are called the Serb clans in the relevant literature (hence the name). These clans often share the same origin (even the Albanian ones). There is no need of splitting the article along ethnic or national boundaries. --George D. Božović (talk) 22:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

What relevant literature? I cannot find any in references... Without this "relevant literature" stated in section "references" this article sounds POV. I am a Serbian from a Serbian Clan (I also feel Montenegrin BTW) but still I can understand discontent of Montenegrins (by ethnicity) and Albanians reading this article about them belonging to "Serbian" clans... I am not a specialist in this field so I can only ask you to do something about it. Nikola 217.153.207.18 (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the historical Montenegrin clans (WHO WERE SERBS, READ IT), and why the hell do you think that the clans who today may call themselves "montenegrins" (show me references of a entire clan that is declared montenegrin by ethnicity!) but in history were Serb shouldn't be in the article?? They can call themselves whatever they like, but they are, wheter they like it or not, descendants of the Serb clans, this article is about the Serb Clans!

[edit] Why???

This article is obviously named so to cause some stir between Serbs and Montenegrins (and Albanians). I can put some links that show that the clans were Montenegrin by ethnicity, but then, someone will negate that and post some links that speak about their Serb heritage. Isn't giving the article a neutral name (and a more precise one, cause "clans" really isn't the right translation) the right solution?

PS. Why the hell do you use Njegos.org to search for facts? lol, quite a neutral site, ain't it :P

I agree —Preceding unsigned comment added by CekoMK (talk • contribs) 23:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ---

Way Serb clans, hier are Montenegros and Albaniens clans? The Montenegro clans are not Serb clans??? --Hipi Zhdripi 13:46, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

They was orthodox clans bot not Serb clans. Is not so simply to say evry orthodox clans belong to Serb clans. They was part of Bizantin clans and not part of Serb clans.--Hipi Zhdripi 13:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is too Serbocentric article

... and is talking about solely Monetenegrin and surrounding clans. Serbs have none connections to these customs, neither they have any similar to these. So, naming it with "Serb clans" is complete error with facts. The article (and links) should be carefully edited.

You've got to be joking right? The article on "Serb clans" is "too Serbocentric"? Also, as a descendant of a member of one of these clans, I find your suggestion that they're not Serb ridiculous, not even offensive. Get a life/therapy ;-)--estavisti 15:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

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I am a member of pleme Vasojevici and I AM A SERB:) I still have not met anyone with strong Vasojevici, Piperi or Bjelopavlici origins that would claim not to be Serb (or his ancestors at least)... I think you should carefully study Montenegrin history first. nikola

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I'm from Piperi and I claim to be MONTENEGRIN !!!!!!! Why is this Serb tribes? Serbians don't have tribes they are too primitive ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apiya (talk • contribs) 12:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a historical article and you should see WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shameful article

Can somebody to write neutral article about Montenegrin and Brda clans (not Serb clans)? My origin is in Brda and I'm not SERB, definitely. And the best solution is to change name of this article to Montenegrins clans.--Dzemper 22:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Haha, maybe you're not Serb, but your ancestry was... you can't delete historical facts ! --Nexm0d--

You know that better than me? And write here some historical facts, example for clans of Rovci or Cuce. --Dzemper 10:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure thats source of njegos.net, neutral and good for wikipedia, neutral encyclopedia?

[edit] Rename the article to "Bratstvo and Pleme in Montenegro"

I propose that this article is renamed to "Bratstvo and Pleme in Montenegro". This is because the translation of "bratstvo" and "pleme" into "clans" is misleading and does not give any good reference to their contemporary character.

Different authors have translated "bratstvo" as either 'clan' or 'lineage' and some - as 'brotherhood'. In English each of these terms have different connotations. 'Lineage' for instance is defined in anthropology as a kin group that can trace its ancestry from a particular person in history and recount all the descendants from that person to the present day (which is not always the case in Montenegro). In addition - lineages are most usually discussed in context of Africa (e.g. in Evans-Pritchard's famous works). 'Clans' are also problematic. On the one hand they are conceptually connected with Scottish highlander system. On the other hand, clans are often used to describe contemporary criminal association and in this context used in contemporary Montenegro (in Serbian form - as 'klanovi') but this kind of usage is not usually connected with the traditional kin groups of 'bratstva' in Montenegro. Brotherhood in turn in English represents usually fictional kinship (as in religious organisations).

Moreover - usage of terms like clan and tribe has been criticised by many authors because it often reflects misleading etnocentric views of 'developed' western researchers to the 'undeveloped' and 'tribal' 'rest'. What has been often described by the same terms in different parts of the world may represent different things in reality.

Renaming also will help avoiding the problem of whether these are Serbian, or Montenegrin or Albanian or indeed ancient Illirian (as several authors have speculated). The system of bratstva in Montenegro is characteristic not only to (orthodox, christian, Serbian/Montenegrin) population but also to Albanians and extends to Albania and Herzegovina.

I also would argue against the classification of bratstva into 'territorial' and 'lineage'. Partly because of the above terminology issues but mostly because this does not have any sense from the point of view of real situation. Each bratstvo can have people who live more closely to each other and some - that live in distant parts of Montenegro and/or abroad. Thus - in fact both are the same and this classification is artificial. Bezvardis 11:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

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I agree with you Bezvardis.--Dzemper 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

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I rewrote the intro part of this article, giving a definition of Bratstvo and Pleme and explaining the relationship between the two. I also added the reference to Cvijić but I am not sure that the list below is the list he came up with since I don't have his book available. Could somebody check and correct the list accordingly.

I deleted the reference to Turkish etc occupations as primary reason for creation of plemena since it is very unlikely that plemena did not exist before (taking in consideration that Ivan Crnojevic could not grant any privilegies to something that already did not exist)

I deleted the section of Dispersed Ancestral Clans since it is not clear where the list comes from and whether they indeed are bratstva or plemena?

Corrected the title of the map.

Also - the list at Njegus.net is much shorter and I suspect that the list here contains now not only Plemena but some Bratstva as well which it should not.Bezvardis 19:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What parts of Herzegovina have Plemena?

I am not aware of this. What used to be called Eastern Herzegovina in the 19th century(Banjani, Drobnjaci)is now part of Montenegro. The reference to Herzegovina should be removed. The only reason I can see for its existance is to present Plemena as not exclusively Montenegrin.Momisan 11:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

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Thank you for the comment. I corrected the text accordingly. --Bezvardis 18:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No, no, no

I have no bad intentions. The current names gives a total of 0 Google search results and violates the basics of English language (and is unsourced - as per WP:NOR). Thereby, I rv back to its original naming. Also, I'm removing the Serbianization of the article (English language please!). --HolyRomanEmperor 09:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, the article is offensive - it tends to avoid "Serb Clans"; when afaic the population of East Herzegovina in Republika Srpska - as well as the Serbs in the Brda of Montenegro and in Boka are descendent. It also avoids the historicity of the Headsmen's statements. --HolyRomanEmperor 09:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zbor

The Montenegrin Zbor glavara (the collectivity of each and every Head of each and every clan) wrote on 21 October 1711 to the Russian Czar Peter the Great:

Ми, сва горе наведена племена и старјешине све разумјесмо и Вашем царском крилу главе приклонисмо, и Вашег посланика, Михаила Милорадовића примисмо за нашег команданта и пуковника. И како су били његови стари изабрани у прва времена при нашијех благочастивијех и светопочившијех царевах српскијех, тако и ми са радостију примисмо врлога и храброга који се на боју добро понаша.

Opsti Crnogorski Zbor (now with the Highland chiefs as well) counciled and wrote in September of 1742 to the Russian Czarina, stating that they're: православно-грчке вјероисповијести, синови Цркве Источне, који се налазимо у српској земљи - Скендерији, Црној Гори и Приморју.

The Zbor Glavara wrote to a Chief in Russia ин 1752, stating that its: у далеким странама српске земље, у предјелу црногорском.

The Crnogorski Zbor wrote to the provider of Kotor, Justinian Bert, on 24 October 1765 that they're: православне вјере христијанске и закона Цркве Восточне, а рода честна и света славеносрпскаго.

The Zbor Glavara announced in June of 1789 that they're of цијеле заједнице Срба Црногораца and wrote to the Russian Empress Catherine II about themselves: ми Срби Црногорци нећемо бити остављени без помоћи and then add: кад бисмо имали организацију и џебану ми бисмо сву нашу славну српску земљу испод ига варварскога отели, с нашом браћом Србима који се сада налазе наоружани с намјером да ударе на непријатеља са свих страна.

The Zbor Glavara wrote in 1792 openly to the Venetian Senate:

Ми смо хвалећи Бога цвијет од вјере и од закона православнога грчаскога, језика и славнога јунаштва српскога.

The Свеопшта народна скупштина Васојевића brought at the end of 1829 or beginning of 1830 the Vasojevici Code in 12 Points:

• 1st point: 1. Да се беспоговорно умире сва братства васојевичка и србљачка. Ко не буде олџија, да буде нагонџија.
• 4th point: 8. 8. Ко српско украде па се уфати, да плати дупло и кметовима ручак. Ако се не уфати, да му је арам.

[edit] ...Try to understand

You "montenegrins by ethnicity" should know that the clans of Montenegro were Serbian clans of Montenegro, not Montenegrin clans, in all papers from the arrival of Slavs until WWII shows that the people/clans of Montenegro were (and still are) Serbian. // Nexm0d

I agree, but it is not easy for them. It is hard to be a minority in your own country. vasojevic, andrijevica

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You are a minority in Montenegro which you clamed before may 2006 :P . I really don't understand you people (serbs in montenegro). Why do you claim you're serbs when you speak montenegrin, live in montenegro ... :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apiya (talk • contribs) 12:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The same reason why they can't understand you why you denounce a Serb identity...the two sides hardly understand each other... --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please try avoiding politics

I would suggest avoiding politics (as much as possible). The reason why I suggested changing the title of this article (see above in this discussion) is that the English term 'clan' does not correspond well with the reality in Montenegro and in different English language sources 'plemena' and 'bratstva' are being inconsistently translated as clans, tribes, lineages, brotherhoods etc. Moreover, they are to a great extent unique and therefore should not be mixed/directly compared with 'clans' in other parts of the world.

Regarding whether these are 'Serb', 'Montenegrin', 'Albanian', 'Illiric' or whatever - I know that some people can argue to loss of voice regarding this, therefore I suggest to avoid this proprietary approach and simply treat it as a social phenomenon existing in the territory of present-day Montenegro. Moreover - it is strange to have a list of 'Serb clans' with at least two (Piperi and Kuci) which are described as 'Serb/Albanian'. Meaning - plemena are difficult to describe in terms of nationality and better stick to the territory. That does not avoid all problems, but allows to escape unnecessary political debate.

I also previously had removed the 'dispersed ancestral clans' since their definition is unclear. All 'bratstva' today are 'dispersed', i.e., members of bratstva are not all living in one territory but all around Montenegro and indeed - the whole world. Plemena on the other hand are a territorial unit and as such cannot be 'dispersed'. Please correct me if I am not right.

Also - please someone who has better knowledge than me regarding particular plemena/bratstva go over the list of them and try separating bratstva from plemena. I suspect the current list is badly mixed up. I have never heard that there were or are almost 100 plemena in Montenegro (as it is in the current list)

--Bezvardis 08:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on terminology

Referring to 'serbianisation' of the article, i.e., usage of native terms instead of 'tribe' and 'clan' please read the articles in Wikipedia which define and describe what is 'tribe' and 'clan' and then try comparing them to 'bratstvo' and 'pleme'. You will see that there are some overlaping but also significant diferences as well as drawbacks of these English terms when applied to particular situations. This additionaly explains why the English 'clan' and 'tribe' should be avoided here. --Bezvardis 09:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What I don't like...

Is presenting the Highland, Coastal & Easternherzegovinian tribes as Montenegrin as well (when they weren't). Ironically, their descendents mostly consider themselves Serbs (some exceptions with the coastalmen), whereas nearly all Montenegrin clanmen consider themselves Montenegrins in the national sense. --PaxEquilibrium 22:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I agree jjust to some extent. i am from vasojevic tribe (or clan or pleme - whatever you call it) and its not true that vasojevici consider themselves "serbs living in montenegro". WE ARE BOTH SERBS AND MONTENEGRINS (i know it may seem schizophrenic). As my great grand father used to say: "montenegrins are the best serbs":). dragovic

[edit] Drobnjaci

As far as I understood, there is a lot of controversy regarding the issue if the Drobnjaks are Montenegrins or Herzegovinians. They are considered Herzegovinian, and they geographically are surely in Herzegovina, but as far as I know, they're Old Montenegrins. --PaxEquilibrium 17:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Theory

This map shows you a present day Montenegro. I am from this region of Sestan (Albanian: Shestani). Shestan steches from Brisk (Brisku) to Uzdabic (Ucdabaj) near Crrmica ((Rumija Mountain)). Althought there are no more people (Mabey 10 families, the most) in Shestan they were and are all albanian. Im not saying that all of these clans were albanian but many were of mixed stock. for example the Maleševci clan: Đokić which in albanian is translated in Gjokaj, Đurović = Gjuraj, Janković = Jankaj (Livari, Ljare), Nikolić = Nikolaj, ***Skender*** (You mean to tell me SKENDER is serbian?), Stanković = Stankaj. And Especially Piperi where i know of Albanians that are actually from there. Everyone can argue either way, but it is fact that some of these places where "Serbs" Claim to have these tribes albanians do and have inhabitited these villiages. --Ljare 12:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stop the propaganda

I would just ask you to start being objective on issues connected to Montenegro and Montenegrins, and to set your political or other feelings aside when contributing. Serb clans- the title itself is absurd enough, let alone the rest of the article. Try going to Cuce, Njegusi, Rijecka Nahija,Cevo,etc. and tell them their clans were and are Serb, you will get shot... I'm sick of people having no immediate contact or enough knowledge on the issues assuming everything according to their nationalist POV. I don't want to edit this article, because some of you will rv it and substantiate it with a big load of BS as usually. Sideshow Bob 15:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think that the title is absurd, when 99% of the ethnological and historical works about these clans call them Serb clans? If you went to Vasojevići and told them that they were not a Serb clan, I believe you would get shot, too. So that modern politic crap in Montenegro is POV. --Djordje D. Bozovic 16:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Malesia/Malsija clans

I'd like to say that Shkreli, Kelmendi, Kastrati, and half of Hoti are not part of Montenegrin Malsi, but are in Albania. And I can also say that no Malsor clan claims any Serb origin. A few families here and there do (one, Bojaj, originally came from Niksic), but not whole clans. I know Serbs claim that Trieshi, Hoti, and Krasniqi were kin with Vasojevici, but that isn't true. Hoti descends from one man, Keq Preka, who lived in Bosnia for a little while and then settled in modern day Hot (he named after the original Hoti tribe, which was destroyed in a war with the Balsici and the remnant of which fled into Albania where they still exist today). I've heard Hoti is the "older brother" of Trieshi, but I don't know if that's true. As for Krasniqi, they probably got lumped in with Hot and Triesh because a branch of Krasniq is related to a branch of Hot.

All this stuff about Hoti comes from a book called "Hoti Gjenealogjia e Pjeseshme e Tij", which has all the different families of Hoti, there history, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.41.58.183 (talk) 00:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Montenegrin clans

What are the double articles for? What's the point in having two separate articles on the very same topic with the very same text. I believe this modern-day ethnic Montenegrin name should not be applied to what existed before that name came to be used. You cannot say that medieval Doclea was a Montenegrin kingdom, because there were simply no people who called themselves Montenegrins in the Middle Ages; be honest and admit that :). Same goes for these clans - they were always referred to as Serb clans. They were not even all included in the territory of Montenegro before the 20th century. --Djordje D. Bozovic 16:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's stupid, and I changed it into a redirect. Nikola 07:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Let's use the logic here - if our clans are Serb(ian), why aren't there any clans in Serbia itself? If so-called experts can explain this, I'll give up on trying to prove the obvious absurdity of this article's title, and parts of its content... Let me hear from you, what clan is there in Serbia, apart from Zemun clan? Sideshow Bob 20:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Once there were clans all over Europe. In the past every people was organized into clans. Later clans and tribes mostly disappeared. Some Serb clans remained in mountainous parts of Montenegro and Herzegovina. In Scotland, clans remained in the Highlands too, but in the Scottish Lowlands there are no clans. Tribes and clans, as a primitive way of uniting, only remained in undeveloped mountainous areas such as Herzegovina and Montenegro, or the Highlands. --George D. Božović 18:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SERB CLANS?

If Serb clans exist, please could anybody name to me at least ONE Serb clan in SERBIA. Name of this article should be "Clans in Montenegro"

Clans - or tribes - as a primitive way of uniting once existed all over the Balkans. Later they dissolved, but some of them remained in the undeveloped mountainous parts of Montenegro and Old Herzegovina. That's why there are no clans in Serbia anymore, partly also because of the huge migrations towards north and west during the Middle Ages. Serbia, whose population mostly emigrated towards the present-day Vojvodina and Croatia, then was largely settled by people from Montenegro and Herzegovina. They continued to track their ancestry to some of the Serb clans of the old homeland, but being separated from the clan centres, they normally started forgetting it, because in Serbia tribal ancestries didn't matter that much as in Montenegro and Old Herzegovina, where the remaining Serb clans actually were, where they still existed. --George D. Božović 20:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Although your proposal is quite thoughtful, the article is titled "Serb clans" because this is the usual term applied to these clans, or tribes, in the works of scientists that studied and described them (cf. Jovan Cvijić et al.). I believe any other title would be at least a little bit of original research and would not be this accurate, e. g. there are no Serb clans in Montenegro only, but also in Eastern Herzegovina, and even Albania as well, and therefore such titles as "Montenegrin clans" or "Clans in Montenegro" (the first one carrying an ethnic connotation connected to modern Montenegrins, and thus so not appropriate) would be partly incorrect. --George D. Božović 20:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, or Jovan Erdeljanović. Both him and Jovan Cvijic belonged to clans from Montenegro, by the way. --PaxEquilibrium 21:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Highland Tribes and Drobnjaci

Can anyone explain why are Drobnjaci put into Highland Tribes? There are (and there is no arguing about that) seven Highland Tribes and that are Vasojevići, Moračani, Rovčani, Bratonožići, Kuči, Piperi and Bjelopavlići. They are even called Seven "Brda". It is pretty straightforward to count to seven so I cannot understand why there are now eight highland tribes... Drobnjaci are from Old Herzegovina and therefore I am removing them from Highland Tribes part. 89.77.106.218 (talk) 23:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

How about making 2 separate articles: "Serb clans" and "Clans in Montenegro?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.6.235 (talk) 19:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. No Serb clans exist!(proven fact, serbs didn't form clans). These are Montenegrin clans and I assure you no serbs were there. Even if there were, these are still Montenegrin Clans and should be named that way. --SS.Nolimit (talk) 00:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Considering that you take up Ćipur, who has been banned from every single forum, and his 100th nick remains still only on Cafe del Montenegro, where he is still tolerated and put up with, I think no explanation is needed. A proven fact is that the term applied for these was "Serb clans", and that, yes, its individuals considered themselves Serbs, in whatever scale (next to Albanians for example). As for the fallacious claim about Serbs forming no clans (?), this was already discussed before. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

I have restored this to Serb clans again and move protected it. Please discuss what the name of the article should be and reach consensus over a name rather than keep moving it to different names as you think fit. When agreement has been reached a move request should be made at WP:RM or ask me on my talk page. Thanks Keith D (talk) 08:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SERBIA WIKIPROJECT?!?!

It's bad enough that you have named it serb clans but now wikiproject serbia??? I fixed it.