Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks/Archive 42

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[edit] GA review

Hi there, I will be reviewing this article against the Wikipedia:good article criteria and for such a long and potentially contentious article I will be doing it as part of a multi stage review. I have read through the article once, and I think its very good but still has one or two minor issues to be addressed. I will list below the principle problems which prevent this article from achieving GA status and I will also append a list of other comments which, whilst they are not essential for GA, may help in the future development of the article.

Should the contributors disagree with any of my comments then please indicate below why you disagree and suggest a solution, compromise or explanation. If something I raise has been discussed and agreed upon on this talk page in the past then please mention it as I do not have time to read though all 41 archives. Once the review is finished (and it may take a couple of days to complete), the contributors will have seven days to effect changes to the article, although further time will be granted if a concerted effort is being made to address the problems. As long as somebody is genuinely trying to deal with the issues raised then I will not fail the article.

I am aware that my standards at GA Review are quite high, but I feel that an article deserves as thorough a review as possible when applying for GA and that a tough review process here is an important stepping stone to future FAC attempts. Please do not take offence at anything I have said, nothing is meant personally or maliciously and if anyone feels aggrieved then please notify me at once and I will attempt to clarify the comments in question. Finally, should anyone disagree with my review or eventual decision then please take the article to WP:GAR to allow a wider selection of editors to comment on the issues discussed here.

[edit] Issues preventing promotion

(These issues must be satisfactorily addressed, in the article itself or here, before GA promotion can go ahead)

  • The Lead.
  • I notice that several citations are used throughout the lead. This is not normal standard practice except for quotations as anything mentioned in the lead should also be cited further down the page. Is there any specific reason that the facts cited in the lead are especially controversial or requiring citation? And if there is why are only the first three of five paragraphs cited?
  • Did Per this discussion and this discussion, editors of this article have conceded to cite several of the most "controversial" areas of the lead. Specifically, the fact that it was nineteen hijackers and that the attacks were suicide ones. As for -- VegitaU (talk) 22:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
  • That's fine, as long as consensus has been established on this issue then those references are appropriate.
  • "Excluding the hijackers, 2,974 people died as an immediate result of the attacks with another 24 missing and presumed dead; the number of immediate victims totaled 2,998, the overwhelming majority of whom were civilians." There is no need to give the figure twice, it's a little confusing as is: instead I suggest simply removing part of the sentance: "Excluding the hijackers, 2,974 people died as an immediate result of the attacks with another 24 missing and presumed dead, the overwhelming majority of whom were civilians."
  • Throughout the article, make sure that all citations come after punctuation and not in the middle of a sentance.
  • Did Done as far as I can see. Please let me know if I've missed any. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "According to the 9/11 Commission Report, the bombs were probably fake." I can't see any mention of a bomb before this sentance, what bomb is it referring to?
  • Why is "List of tenants in One World Trade Center" linked and List of tenants in Two World Trade Center not? Better to put them both at the top of the section in italics, or even include the little box at List of World Trade Center tenants somewhere.
  • Is there any particular reason Timothy Maude and John O'Neill are especially mentioned as casualties? I'm not saying they shouldn't be, just questioning why they have been over anyone else? Isn't there a seperate sub-article discussing casualties of the attacks which might be a better place to mention individual people (as well as the nationalities of those killed which appears in the lead but not further down). If it is to stay is needs to be slightly rephrased because it looks like a short prose list at the moment i.e. "Two of the most significant fatalities of the attacks were . . ."
  • "All of the fatalities were civilians except for some of the 125 victims in the Pentagon.[55]" - Better to give the exact number of military personnel killed (I think I remember reading somewhere that it was 55 Army and Navy personnel).
  • "and undergoing deconstruction." Missing an "is"?
  • "Communications equipment, such as broadcast radio, television and two-way radio antenna towers, were damaged beyond repair." Where was this communications equipment and what was the effect of it's destruction?
Update: Still unclear of the effects - if any - of this destruction.
Did I've added a source noting that communications were not severely effected. TV and radio stations were able to reroute signals within hours and resume normal broadcasts. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "The origins of al-Qaeda date back to 1979 when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Soon after the invasion, Osama bin Laden traveled to Afghanistan and with American government assistance where he helped organize Arab mujahideen and established the Maktab al-Khidamat (MAK) organization to resist the Soviets" - sentance is unclear, please clarify a bit: did the American government help OBL go to Afghanistan, organise the Mujhaideen or both?
  • "Lawrence Wright explains Atta as committing martyrdom in immediate response to the Israeli strikes at the beginning of Operation Grapes of Wrath.[98]" - Why is Lawrence Wright's opinion on this so important? Either give the evidence he used to back up this claim or rephrase it, I'm especially concerned about the "committing martyrdom", which doesn't sound very NPOV.
  • Did Tried to rephrase as best as possible, but I don't have The Looming Tower to quote from. -- VegitaU (talk) 00:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "explains that foreign policy decisions including" - whose foreign policy decisions? I'm assuming the United States', but it should be clear.
  • "Canada, one of the main recipients of diverted flights launched Operation Yellow Ribbon to deal with the large numbers of grounded planes and stranded passengers.[116]" - Should this be "Canada WAS one of the main . . ."?
  • Did Corrected wording. -- VegitaU (talk) 00:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I have added a [citation needed] tag to the Domestic Response section, please address it.
  • Did I have addressed it with three varying citations reflecting the challenges and views against the Patriot Act -- VegitaU (talk) 01:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The "See Also" section requires severe trimmming I suggest that:
  • 2004 Madrid train bombings & 2005 London bombings should be removed - they are already covered by the War on Terrorism navigation box and are not otherwise closely co-ordinated (in the way that the anthrax attacks were for example).
  • Did Done.
  • Did Done.
  • Did Done.
  • Did Done. "...memorials and services" is already linked within the article so I didn't add it here.
  • Did Done.
  • Did Done, though I have to say some of that stuff is very interesting and those little-known facts are good to know. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree, and they may well deserve places in some of the sub-articles or categories associated with this topic, but none (with the possible exception of the USS Cole Bombing now I come to think about it (which should be linked in the main text if at all)) are in my opinion of significant relevance for the main article on 911.
  • Once these are dealt with then I will look at this section again. It maybe that there is no need for any of these links because there is a handy sidebar with the most important links on it already.

Additional point: Please add something on the international range of the victims to the main body of the article because at the moment it only appears in the lead.--Jackyd101 (talk) 20:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Did Fixed with a different citation. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other comments

(These comments are not essential to passing GAN)

  • "The attacks created widespread confusion across the United States." Confusion in what - it might be better to be more specific i.e. in air traffic control, media, government etc.
  • Did I tried to specify the wording with regards to the examples in the paragraph that followed. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "To witnesses watching, a few of the people falling from the towers seemed to have stumbled out of broken windows." - What is the relevance of this sentance? Is it implying they were pushed, became disorientated in the smoke or something else?
  • "The roof access doors were locked and thick smoke and intense heat would have prevented rescue helicopters from landing." - Theres something disjointed here, I suggest adding "even had they been open" to the end of the sentance.
  • ". . . but was unable to identify the rest (about 1,100 people)." - Is it 1,100 people they could not find or 1,100 remains they could not identify? Clarify this please.
  • "Others, such as Jason Burke," - when citing experts, always indicate their job so that their commentary is better contextualised i.e. "Others, such as journalist Jason Burke," or "For instance, terrorism analyst Peter Bergen argues that". I also have no clue who Michael Scott Doren is as there is no link to him.
  • Did I've added titles to these figures
  • Bergen still lacks one, otherwise good.
  • Did Added one to Bergen. -- VegitaU (talk) 14:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I think the sentance "Immediately after the September 11 attacks U.S. officials[117] speculated on possible involvement by Saddam Hussein; although unfounded, the association contributed to public acceptance for the 2003 invasion of Iraq." should come at the end of the paragraph as it deals primarily with events that came after the rest of the paragraph. The citation should be at the end of the sentance unless it does not source the whole sentance in which case a new source should be found.
  • Did I reworked the paragraph for better flow and moved the sentence as requested.
  • Is there anyway to link to Article 5 of the NATO Charter? Wikisource?
  • Did I've quoted the entire Article within the citation. A little bulky and awkward, but it works. I'm not sure familiar with Wikisource.
  • Who is Mark Sigmund?
  • Did He's the son of the reporter who wrote the article cited at the end of the quote. So basically, an unnotable person. I deleted the name and smoothed the quotation transition. -- VegitaU (talk) 03:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


I will continue the review from where I left off soon, meanwhile you can be getting on with the above. Good work so far.--Jackyd101 (talk) 12:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, done. Once all the above are addressed I will look over the article again and may well have more or supplementary comments to add. Its a good article and clearly there has been a lot of contention over this. Happily, it seems that this has now been navigated past and the article is ready to take the step to GA.--Jackyd101 (talk) 18:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I have tried addressing issues you raise, except I haven't gotten as far as your "Other comments". In the lead, a few of the refs are needed (per extensive discussion on the talk page) for the word "terrorist" and for "Al Qaeda". I think these refs belong next to those words. I have also not totally checked all references for formatting, etc. Only have checked the lead and the "Attacks" sections. Will come back later to do more. --Aude (talk) 17:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, here is the casualties subarticle - User:Aude/Casulties of the September 11, 2001 attacks. I'm trying to cleanup and consolidate various subarticles, but this is not ready for the article mainspace. I cut some details from this article and moved to the subarticle. --Aude (talk) 17:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I have now addressed the other comments, except for clarifying the "The attacks created widespread confusion across the United States." sentence. I'm not sure how best to fix that. --Aude (talk) 17:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry about the confusion thing for now. When you feel you have addressed all the issues I have raised above please let me know. I will then read through the whole article once more and either pass it or raise any new or remaining points here. Thanks for the work so far.--Jackyd101 (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Objection to Archiving

I'm dissapointed that the discussion on the FBI has been archived before resolution. The reason given was POV and the only reply to the editors questions was Synth and OR.

Quote: "Not sure what "Team Liberty" is or where they get their info, but the FBI itself states evidence linking bin Laden and 9/11 is clear and irrefutable. And you can't dismiss mutiple video confessions as "false" without some serious citations. I consider this matter closed."

1. The statement is accurate and is an official response by the FBI to the question of Bin Ladens involvement, there are reliable sources that repeat it (it's unfortunate he used a questionable one). 2. The source you provided to refute it does say that, but that is all it says...it provides no proof to back the claim and is a political response. 3. You cannot assume the video confessions are authentic as they are disputed so are not reliable as evidence. 4. YOU consider the matter closed? By what authority?
Regardless of whether the editor is a proponent of conspiracies or not he asked a relevant question in good faith and deserves an intelligent answer as to why it should not be mentioned which I can give him now: the statement is already in another 9/11 article (unless some POV warrior has deleted it there) and as the FBI opinion is only one of many it is not really relevant here as responsibility is only a minor part of this topic because it has it's own article. Please be careful when dismissing people who support conspiracies as you only feed them by over the top censorship and especially when false reasons for rejection are given. Wayne (talk) 17:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

False reasons? He says: "The FBI's page on bin Laden [1] does not mention the WTC attack at all. "Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
"As for the confessions, bin Laden did not walk into a police station, get fingerprinted, and then confess. To assume that a video tape from dubious sources is the absolute truth is quite an asumption. I did not say it was false; I said there is no evidence to prove that it is not false. Repeatedly confessing does not make something true. Bin Laden's movement has benefited greatly from the presumption that he did it - so confessing to it had a definite profit for him, whether he did or did not."
Osama hasn't been indicted or charged in connection with the 9/11 attacks, but he's still sought after as a suspect. The fact that the Most Wanted page doesn't have 9/11 on it doesn't suddenly prove his innocence. There is evidence as cited in various articles that he's linked to the attacks. Stop misinterpreting evidence without clear citations.
  1. You admit the FBI's comments are accurate.
  2. The burden of proof isn't on me. Wikipedia doesn't have to prove Osama did it, we just cite reliable sources that say evidence linking him is "clear and irrefutable".
  3. Disputed by whom?
  4. This authority
Now, this talk page is not for discussing conspiracy theories. That's why I archived it and that's why I'm going to archive this. -- VegitaU (talk) 17:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Firstly the FBI claim for the reason Bin Laden has not been charged is not a conspiracy theory. The claim "clear and irrefutable" is an outright lie in the context you have given it. That claim was made as a political statement without proof. The FBI was clear in that the reason Osama has not been charged is that none of the available evidence would be acceptable to a court. No one is disputing that Osama is a suspect. No one disputes that evidence points to him. Very few would even dispute that he is guilty. But then that is not what the editor you assumed bad faith for was claiming. He asked a relevant question that should have been answered. You are the one who turned it into a discussion on conspiracy theories instead of giving a coherant answer that would have ended the matter. This authority does not give you the power to dismiss legitimate questions just because you do not like the answer. Official theory POV pushers are no better than conspiracy theory POV pushers. Archive this section if you will but keep in mind that this is not about conspiracy theories but about the abuse of an Arbcom decision. Wayne (talk) 06:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well your views are noted. But unless you have some definitively verifiable sources that are relevant to the discussion, stop this argument. Osama not being taken and fingerprinted as a bearing on his taped confessions is simple speculation. No more, no less. -- VegitaU (talk) 06:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be missing the point. I do not need to provide sources for two reasons. 1. As I stated earlier I oppose adding the information to this article and 2. The sources are already supplied in the 911 article where the information is presented. My sole objection is to the refusal to reply to an editor and archiving his question so others can't answer it. This in itself is not only a violation of WP policy but also a violation of the Arbcom and such actions, if continued, could and should result in a topic ban. Wayne (talk) 14:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This issue and other issues have already been covered again and again and again and again. Including discussions in which you participated in. Stop pretending to be some mediator in the middle, because your few contributions add little meaningful content to improving this article. Per this discussion, I have taken it upon myself to quickly archive any discussions that are merely repeats after I give a sufficient answer. If you think this is POV pushing or the arbcom decision and enforcement goes "too far", you're free to get a second opinion. -- VegitaU (talk) 14:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You can't expect every new editor/reader to read the archives before they read the article (I only have dialup and it takes hours to check an archive for something). If the question is not POV pushing then what is the problem with giving a reasonable answer no matter how many times it has been brought up in the past? The POV pushing I see is that in this case you did not give a "sufficient answer". Why attack me for making few edits to the article? I'm quite proud of the fact that of those "few" edits only one is not in the current version and that is due to it being moved to another article. Wayne (talk) 02:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I gave a reasonable answer. You haven't explained how anything I said is unreasonable. As for bringing stuff up from the past, we have a {{subst:Round In Circles}} template up to notify readers about just that. It's the reason our archives are indexed continuously. Certainly, we don't expect people to go through archives one-by-one. I'm not "attacking" you for anything you've made to the article, but for the arguments I've had with you before. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This image

Let's add this image.

--Ilhanli (talk) 23:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Why? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
This image is already on Wikimedia Commons as Image:Pentagon crach site.jpg and does not have such a POV title. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Because it shows that Pentagon was under attack. You can see how much damage was made by the plane. You can see that the most defended building in USA was hitted. This is one of the most important pics of 9 11 Events.--Ilhanli (talk) 11:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Attacks Were Consistent With the Overall Mission Statement of the Terrorists

The article states "The attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwā issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman declaring that it was the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere.""

In fact the attacks were not entirely consistent with the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere." The attacks were in fact more consistent with the overall mission statement of the Project for the New American Century, as set out in a 2000 fatwa issued by Jeb Bush and cronies (under whose watch the hijackers trained) declaring that "a new Pearl Harbor" was needed to bring "the process of transformation". —Preceding unsigned comment added by SingingSenator (talk • contribs) 15:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Attacks Were Consistent With the Overall Mission Statement of the Terrorists

The article states "The attacks were consistent with the overall mission statement of al-Qaeda, as set out in a 1998 fatwā issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Ahmed Refai Taha, Mir Hamzah, and Fazlur Rahman declaring that it was the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere.""

In fact the attacks were not entirely consistent with the "duty of every Muslim" to "kill Americans anywhere." The attacks were in fact more consistent with the overall mission statement of the Project for the New American Century, as set out in a 2000 fatwa issued by Jeb Bush and cronies (under whose watch the hijackers trained) declaring that "a new Pearl Harbor" was needed to bring "the process of transformation". SingingSenator (talk) 15:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review Final Comments

Great work, I've looked at all the relevant points above and will now read through the article again just to make sure. Anything I come up with I will list below this, but it is unlikely that any of the comments raised will hold up the GA nomination, they're just for future reference.

  • I think the primary contributors to the article should look very closely at the "See Also" section to make sure that all the links there are important and strictly relevant and that any that are are not missing.
  • The prose standard is good overall, but I'm noticing a few repetitions and slightly clumsy phrasing. Its good enough for GA, but might have a tough time at FAC. See if you can get a few uninvolved editors to run over the prose before attempting that (if you drop a line on my talk page I might be able to give it a go myself before you nominate).
  • Take a look at the hate crimes section, because it repeats itself about Sikhs and could perhaps be phrased a little better.
  • "The Commission and its report have been subject to various forms of criticism" - Give examples of this criticism.
  • "were not adequately reinforced to provide emergency escape for people above the impact zones. NIST stated that the final report on the collapse of WTC 7 will appear in a separate report.[155][156] This was confirmed by an independent study by Purdue University.[157]" - What was confirmed? The stairwells thing or the seperate report?

None of these problems are significant enough to warrant any further delay of GA status. Congratulations, this is a well-written and properly sourced article on a hugely controversial and contentious issue that must have been a real challenge to maintain partly due to the sheer volume of information that could be added. Good luck working on the sub-articles and if you need any more input just drop me a line. Regards --Jackyd101 (talk) 09:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Congrats
Moldy sandwiches for all! Thanks to everyone's help
in achieving Good Article status! VegitaU (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WTC 7

The section on the cause of this building's collapse references a preliminary report. The findings in this report are presented in a way that is much more definite than the report says we can be. --RadioElectric (talk) 09:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How's that? The building was compromised by fires and collapsed. True. The investigation is ongoing. True. The current hypothesis is the collapse was caused by fire and debris induced structural damage. True. All true and cited, so tell me how it's supposedly more definite. Please read this and this regarding previous discussions on this topic. -- VegitaU (talk) 13:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I was saying that the article expresses it in stronger terms than the report does. I've seen the way you've been acting on here. Don't mind me if I wait for another editor to come along. --RadioElectric (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
You mean the way I've been reworking the article tirelessly, finding sources, and expertly citing facts? Why thank you, it's good to be noticed. -- VegitaU (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The problem may be the way in which the paragraph is structured (If it's the one I'm looking at - in the Aftermath section under Investigations). I think that material from the published, final report on the Twin Towers collapse is being quoted immediately before a sentence about the ongoing investigation into WTC7. Is this the problem? It wouldn't be hard to make the distinction clearer. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 00:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Book references

A lot of good work is being done to format the references, add page numbers, etc. But, I am concerned about book references being replaced. If page numbers are needed, I can help with that. In general, books written by experts such as Yosri Fouda, Peter Bergen, Lawrence Wright, Terry McDermott, etc. are higher quality than news articles, provide more depth, more fact-checking, with more expertise going into them. Yosri Fouda's book, for example, is the best reference for citing about the interview Fouda did with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh. This part of the interview is also included in his documentary on the attacks - طريق إلى 11 سبتمبر (Road to September 11th). I think that something is being lost by taking these out. --Aude (talk) 01:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Whoops. I saw the lack of page numbers as a problem and started replacing those sources with news organizations. I don't have any of the books, so if anyone here does, it would only improve the article further. My only concern would be this opening up to garbage like Debunking 9/11 Debunking and Painful Questions. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I have accumulated numerous books which cover various aspects in-depth (though I'm going away for the summer and not taking them with). There are also some good documentaries, including ones that PBS produced, and the one I mentioned above by Fouda is excellent though not in English. A huge amount has been written on the attacks, so we need to filter through it and choose the best sources. Of course there is a lot of junk out there too. I'm starting a list here (User:Aude/9-11 sources) of what I have, what I think are best sources for various aspects. Maybe this would help? --Aude (talk) 02:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
That looks good. It's odd though. This is the first lengthy article where a "further reading" section has been completely removed. I think I first showed up at this article when that happened. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I took out the following, which was in the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed section. Although Lawrence Wright's book is an excellent source (and I have the page number), I think this sentence is overly detailed.

"Lawrence Wright, Pulitzer Prize-winning writer, explains that Atta's commitment solidified in response to the Israeli strikes at the beginning of Operation Grapes of Wrath." - source: Wright, Lawrence (2006). The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11. Alfred A. Knopf. ISBN 0-375-41486-X. 

Simply saying "Mohamed Atta shared this same motivation." with one sentence to back that up is sufficient. I also swapped the sources for that, back to what was there before. What I put back is more specific (mentioning Israel) and goes with what the paragraph says about KSM. I realize the MSNBC TV documentary is not as widely available, but I still think it's best for now. --Aude (talk) 02:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think all the other changes look good. --Aude (talk) 02:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I still have to get all the accessdates put on the web sources. What a pain that's been. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Drug connection ?

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Off topic discussion closed and moved to user talk. --Haemo (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

What appears missing from many sources is a possible 'drug connection' to 9-11, even as part of a conspiracy theory ?

As Canadian troops, have found that Afghanistan is providing over 80% of the world's opium supply. [1]

Could it be that the attack on 'America' was in part due to America's war on drugs, and or elements intercepting drug shipments to America ?

Seems that the logic of the situation merits some reference to this.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 19:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I've never heard this one before. And since the Taliban had stopped opium growth before 9/11, no, it's not possible. -- VegitaU (talk) 19:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I too am surprised not to have heard of it before now. Do you have a reliable source for this, or is it just conjecture? We can't just add any editor's opinion to an article. Wikipedia policy forbids it. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thats the problem. No source. It was not ever mentioned that Afghanistan was the world's greatest Opium producer, all the talk was about oil.

Even though much of the conjecture was about oil, never was a drug connection mentioned.

Just last week the Canadian Foreign Minister was showcased on the CBC dating the former wife of a Drug Dealer.

So is there a connection ?

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

No source. Nothing more to discuss. It isn't mentioned on the article. -- VegitaU (talk) 20:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Caesar, this page is not for discussing the attacks, or the possibility of drug connections. It's for discussing how to improve the article. The problem is, we can't do that without reliable sources (because of our verifiability policy). So I'm afraid that this topic isn't going to go anywhere, unless someone can find a published source discussing it. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 20:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I look at the current "motives" for the attack and I don't see any logical motives ?

It is only conjecture, but if some part of the US establishment is interfering in your illegal activity, who are you going to report this to ?

There was a movie to this effect some years ago.

Seems like the other 'suggestions' in the thread are pure conjecture as well....

Just asking for a logical explanation to why "they' did what 'they' did...so far very little there that makes logical sense ?

Just asking for a logical explanation.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion forum. If you don't feel the motives given by Al-Qaeda are logical, then that's your opinion — they clearly disagree. Nonetheless, this isn't a place to discuss which motives are, or are not, logical. Please confine your comments to the article, and not the subject. --Haemo (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Taliban Drug Connection Terroist link

Somehow a previous link has not shown up, but here is another.

Some truths no one wants printed ?

What does that have to do with anything 9/11 related? -- VegitaU (talk) 03:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I will respond to your question on my talk page, as I see an ambush approaching...( it is hoped that this will serve as a model for future cases)

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Please keep discussion centralized. It's hard to follow, otherwise. --Haemo (talk) 03:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Good. That's where these off-tangent discussions belong. -- VegitaU (talk) 03:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


Does this article mention the PBS special Frontline, that came to the conclusion that the Bush whitehouse needed something to invade Iraq, and built "Al-Quida", when in fact this was suppose to be about Bin Ladin...and whatever ?

(Just a quick note about a movie, anyone know the name that outlines how a 'special agent force' used Air forces to attack a drug cartel in Columbia, with the intent of making it appear like a drug war ?)

VegitaU what are your qualification about this issue ?

Anyway, I will leave this issue for now.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 04:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

  • "this was suppose to be about Bin Ladin...and whatever"
Since you wrote a short story-length account here and came to this enthralling conclusion, let me just waste a sentence exclaiming how clear it is to me now why we're losing the war. -- VegitaU (talk) 04:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[edit] Sep11 Template

This discussion should be in the template talk page, I know, but since few, if any, editors check it compared to this article (and since it affects all 9/11-related matter), I'll post it here. Is anyone else really put-off by that sidebar? It just clogs up one end of the article, moves everything out of its way, and prevents any right-sided images. So, if you want your article to be full of pictures, you have to jam them all in on the left side.

This isn't just a rant, however. A problem like this can be easily fixed, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in template syntax to do it. Editors should be able to choose what kind of format they want, vertical or horizontal. Something like {{{{ifeq:}}|horizontal=yes}} (this is just a guesstimate example) added to the template code would allow the template to be displayed horizontally along the bottom, much like the 9/11 hijackers template. And the damn thing should be able to hide in horizontal (not vertical) mode. Then, we could add a variety of images on both sides of the article.

BTW, this complaint arises from the Flight 11 page and its crowded right side. Can anyone help me with this? -- VegitaU (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I resolved the issue myself. I couldn't for the life of me figure out template syntax so I just made a new template. Feel free to change 9/11 articles to {{Sept11}} at your discretion. -- VegitaU (talk) 06:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable Sources

Please add reliable sources. Many of the sources have sided arguments. The sources should be from "neutral" organizations according to Wikipedia Policies. Don't you question the sources?--Ilhanli (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Please point out which sources are not reliable so we can assist you with this. --Haemo (talk) 02:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)