Talk:Scott Joplin/Archive1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Treemonisha 2 Birthdate 3 References 4 Birth year 5 The Entertainer 6 Sections 7 Vandalism 8 Joplin as a romantic composer 9 "Founder of Ragtime" 10 Birth place 11 Jazz 12 Go and study some jazz 13 Irving Berlin 14 Accuracy tag 15 External links 16 Joplin had several marriages. 17 Fair use rationale for Image:Scottjoplin.jpg 18 INSTRUMENT 19 Joplin on Piano rolls 20 Size of Joplin's hands

Treemonisha

Based on the liner notes of the '70s Houston Opera Company production of the revised "Treemonisha", the opera was in fact never staged in Joplin's lifetime. The closest he came was a brief run-through at a Harlem theatre which was more of a rehearsal than a performance, and was by all accounts a disaster. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.107.50.100 (talk • contribs) 17:23, January 4, 2006 (UTC)

Birthdate

I am spending way too much here... I did come across a link, it says he was born January 1867, what we have to find out exact monthm i do not expect exact date... if there is somebody who lives in the area where joplin was born, go, check historical records, it would be good to know the month, if he was 50, that would be nice, symbolic.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.220.171 (talk • contribs) 23 November 2006

Just a quick note: some one should corect the mistake which is udner the picture of this guy: Born June 1859 - January 1868

As you can see, there is 1859... Well, now, it is not, according to the article. Cheers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vuxan (talk • contribs) 22:56, 26 December 2006

References

I attempted to add Scott Joplin, Complete Piano Rags, by David A. Jasen, ISBN 0-486-25807-6, but was unable to do so. I did include it in the Sheet Music section User:W8IMP 0517, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Birth year

The year of Joplin's birth keeps being changed back and forth. People changing or wishing to change it, please site sources for this info, thanks. -- Infrogmation 06:33, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians has him born on November 24, 1868 in Texarkana, Arkansas. Note that Slonimsky in Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians says he was born "probably near Marshall, Texas." Maybe I should put in a note that his birthplace has not been firmly established (has it? if someone knows of some recent research please put it in). Antandrus 03:55, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Like Antandrus, I also have a reliable reference stating he was born on November 24, 1868. However, they place him in Texarkana, Texas, not Arkansas. Though he is so close to the "borderline" it could be either or! I believe Antandrus mispoke there. This is from "American Jazz Musicians" by Stanley Mour published by Enslow Publishers. I am afraid to edit the date though, as there seems to be much confusion concerning his birthdate. (Mind meal 21:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC))

I think it's fair to say that the Scott Joplin International Ragtime Foundation probably has the date of his birth closest. He is, after all, their namesake. Check out http://www.scottjoplin.org/biography.htm. Should the birthdate possilibities listed be changed to between June 1867 and mid-January 1868?

• Whomever did not sign that last post, I would like to say that it doesn't matter what their name is when it comes to accuracy. There are inaccuracies even in the most heavily researched of materials from time to time, and one early mistake can have a chain result; see Talk:Lionel Hampton to see how easy it is for reputable websites to "get it wrong". (Mind meal 21:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC))

The Entertainer

• Not to disrespect "Maple Leaf Rag", but I'd think "The Entertainer" is by far the most famous of Joplin's works and I changed the characterisation of MLR accordingly. Ben-w 23:06, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

• • I'd say thats at least debatable, certainly not "by far" except for the period in the 1970s when the Marvin Hamlish version was in the pop charts. Either way, "Maple Leaf" certainly was by far the most famous Joplin piece during the ragtime era. -- Infrogmation 07:40, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • Ask anyone today to name a Scott Joplin tune and it's "The Entertainer", no question. Ben-w 16:28, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • • I think its interesting to note that Scott Joplin and George Washington Carver were born at approximately the same time and their lives are similiar; both suffering from a chronic illness and both are geniuses providing us with important American discoveries.64.12.116.6

• • • Ask anyone pre-1970 and they will say "What's the Entertainer"?--68.125.35.168 09:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

• • • • Well it is POV anyway so what's the point? TommyBoy76 02:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)TommyBoy76

Sections

It seems to me that this article might be better served by being broken into subtopics--unfortunately, no time to do it tonight... --Dvyost 01:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I gave it a quick go. Ben-w 22:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page seems to me to be an unlikely target for vandalism, yet it gets far, far more than its fair share. Odd. Ben-w 07:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've noticed and wondered about that too. Sad to say, I can only (in conjecture) attribute it to racism. How twisted, considering Joplin's utter genius. --PKtm 08:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Joplin as a romantic composer

Much of Joplin's music, when you really analyze it appears to be more in the vain of folk-inspired Romantic music or simply late 19th-century Romantic composition, rather than ragtime. I think characterizing Joplin as solely a composer of ragtime is insulting to the man and his legacy--its very clear that Joplin always strove to be viewed and accepted as something greater than just a mere composer of toe-thumping bar tunes, but American society at the time simply couldn't accept an educated African American man anything other than that...just look at Treemonisha--it's certainly more musically and stylistically diverse and in a lot of ways fantastically better than what Gershwin was writing a bit later in the 20th century and Gershiwn is always talked about as having written the first true American opera. I think in some instances aspects of Treemonisha, for example the ballet the "Frolic of the Bears," compare more favorably to other nationalistic/folk-inspired Romantic music of the late 19th and early 20th century (i.e. Grieg's Peer Gynt incidental music) than ragtime. Another of his most complex and arguably best compositions, "Bethena", which is a concert waltz, is by any standard extremely impressive and comapres favorably to some of the great Chopin waltzes. Unfortunately, people being unable to accept Joplin as anything other than a Ragtime composer generally barbarously mis-orchestrate Bethena into some sort of ragtime jig, which is rather sad.

At any rate, I just think something is lacking in this article when there really is no mention of how diverse his compositions actually were, and the fact that his composition bears many of the hallmarks of the best of European and American romantic music being written in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, rather than just simply ordinary ragtime. -68.79.195.19 20:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there should be some kind of recognition of the extent Joplin was able to create works (such as "Bethena" or "Magnetic Rag") which were very much greater than mere Ragtime. Not being a musicologist I don't have the expertise to go into the technical detail, however. Should this be within the "Legacy" section perhaps if it were demonstrable, and not just POV?Major Bloodnok 23:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, I think that there should be a section such as "musical development", detailing Joplin's, erm, development as a composer. I'll see what I can come up with when I have the chance. Also, it would follow that his compositions should be listed by year composed and /or thematically rather than alphabetically. Perhaps this should be on a different page as with other classical composers? Major Bloodnok 11:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Amended the "works" section to list works by publication date, in line with other composers. Major Bloodnok 12:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"Founder of Ragtime"

An anon on rotating ip#s keeps putting in that Joplin was "the founder of ragtime". Once they sited [1]. As Joplin was not the first to create works in ragtime, nor made any such claim to have founded or invented the form, this is inaccurate and inappropriate, even if some poorly written tourist site has such a claim. -- Infrogmation 22:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, the place of birth has been changed. Is there any proof of this? Where is the source of the information? Available information seems to indicate that there is no definitive proof either way. Also, as Infrogmation shows, it is simply wrong to say that Joplin was the founder of Ragtime. Major Bloodnok 00:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If you recall alan freen, he gave name to rock n roll, black american artists called it by different names and it was not white music, but combination... ok... now... I agree with you guys, it's possible he was not THE FOUNDER BUT HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN FOUNDING this kind of music, the birth... www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Joplin-S.html hard to say, but current version (i corrected town) sounds much better, keep in mind, these things get lost over time you know, that's all. That's normal, sad but true. There are some sources which claim he was born january 1857, go figure. Anyways, hopefully current should be ok. But yea, ragtime belongs to him. Remember, during his time, it was called something else, there was ragtime, but it was not definitive.-Nov 20

The preceding unsigned comments were left by User:66.99.3.246.Kukini 22:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it is generally accepted by those who have studied the matter that Joplin wrote ragtime with greater sophistication and art than his predessesors. I know of no scholarly sources which agree with the statements you repeatedly put him about him being "the founder of" or giving "birth" to ragtime. This sounds about on the level, say, of a claim that Mozart "founded" European classical music. It is inaccurate and hinders rather than helps understanding of the important figure. The link you include to the encyclopedia.com article offers nothing to support your claim. (That article also includes some minor inaccuracies, as the external links at the end of the Wikipedia article correct.) Also, please sign your comments (I encourage you to choose a user name and log in if you plan to stick around.) I hope this is clearer. -- Infrogmation 14:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Birth place

[2] gives his birthplace as "probably at Caves Springs, near Linden, Texas"; [3] says "the place of his birth in east Texas is a matter of some debate." I have changed the article accordingly unless new definitive evidence has put an end to the debate. -- Infrogmation 14:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

well, provide some evidence already, otherwise this is vandalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.0.3 (talk) 21-Nov-2006 13:%3

The two links above I think are relevent to that point. If you dispute them, please explain why. Also, I think you would be taken more seriously if you sign your comments. At present I am giving you the benifit of a doubt, but I do wonder if you you are trolling in a deliberate attempt to make trouble. -- Infrogmation 18:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you stop playing around with this article and STOP REMOVING relevant articles, because I will not allow that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.1.51 (talk) 22-Nov-2006 16:13 I would like to know... POSSIBLY born near Linder, WHAT IS THAT, IS THAT MATERIAL FOR ENCYCLOPEDIA? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.107.1.51 (talk) 22-Nov-2006 16:19

Infrogmation, I removed "probably" and just stated Linden, with a cite close to the one placed by User:64.107.0.3/User:64.107.1.51. However, looks like you have some sources which contradict. Perhaps the whole para needs re-writing? It looks like you have some history with the article, so I'll defer to your judgment. - (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 20:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I put the link there, which should STAY, ok... now, what are you asking me, most of the people will agree he was born in Linden, so no use to put probably. I am a ragtime musician as well.

Jazz

I have been the second one to remove anon's description of Joplin's music as "jazz". Calling Joplin's ragtime "jazz" seems about as relevent or appropriate as "rock & roll" -- a style influential on later musics, but hardly equivilent. Please, anon, either read up on the subject before editing or stop trolling. -- Infrogmation 15:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Infrogmation. Technically speaking you are right, as historians usually consider ragtime "pre-jazz" as pertains to the medium. However, it is interesting to note that many of the early New Orleans jazz musicians called themselves ragtime or "rag" players; this is partly because the term "jazz" itself was not used until sometime in the 1900s. It almost seems as if historians have revised the truth to fit in accord with their concept of what jazz is and is not. Ragtime actually was a form of jazz, were we to want to tell the truth to everyone. Duke Ellington and Bennie Moten both proved that through their occasional performance of the medium. In fact, the first recorded black jazz artist in 1915 named Lionel Balasco, made his name with the song Junk Man Rag. Of course, that happened in Trinidad. Don Pullen, Henry Threadgill...and many others had performed ragtime from time to time.(Mind meal 08:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC))

Go and study some jazz

www.infoplease.com/ce6/ent/A0859013.html YOU ARE TALKING TO JAZZ HISTORIAN and do not play with me and this article. I am sick of you reverting, jazz is earliest type of music, and stop using your unorthodox excuses, because they make no sense, the above article proves my point and there are 100's just like that.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.1.4 (talk • contribs) 22:02, 24 November 2006)

I much doubt you are a "JAZZ HISTORIAN". In any event, your repeated placement of http://ctmh.its.txstate.edu/location.php?cmd=detail&lid=19 at the top of the external links (where the link with the most information about Joplin should go) labled "Joplin, founder of ragtime" is simply dishonest. The subject and title of that link is clearly "Linden, Texas". Furthermore, it does not become appropriate to introduce sloppyness and inaccuracy into the article if you can find someone somewhere on the internet who has also been sloppy or inaccurate. -- Infrogmation 14:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok... if article is sloppy, show me, or is that your lousy defense, most of the jazz historians will agree with me that he is the founder, however, i am no longer stating that on wiki, since there are arguments, however, the link is not part of the article but it's external information, together with other information it does not destroy this page, it helps and it gives us a different angle of thought, in the link itself it says he is founder and keep in mind THIS IS NOT JUST ANY LINK, it comes from texas educational link, link is associated with colleges. So, it does not matter what you think of me as a historian or not, hopefully we can agree on something, if not, well, I know I am right. The problem with wiki is one wrong word of uncivility, even if you are right, all of a suddent you become wrong, either way go to some old jazz club and ask musicians, then I will visit there too and let's find out, according to any jazz knowledge, it was joplin (if not the founder) who made it popular and that's just as being a founder. Elvis did not invent rock n roll, there were many other black singers before him who sang it. Together with the combination of gospel, rhythm n blues, country they invented something new and had no idea how to call it. Even Hank Williams in 1947 composed move it on over, in today's terms that's rock n roll. And I suggest you stop calling me troll, that's an attack, all these replies make me think i am talking to a robot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.1.243 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 25 November 2006)

- Buddy Bolden and Jelly Roll Morton made the earliest forms of jazz, not Joplin.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.30.62 (talk • contribs) 07:16, 27 November 2006

What are you talking about, what years are those, do you have a link?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.0.78 (talk • contribs)

- I'm talking about the true originators of jazz, Buddy was born only a decade after Joplin and Morton about 17 years, and you can check their respective wikipedia articles for a link. If that's not enough I can provide more later.

- I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble (and especially Jazz Historian over there) but Jazz is 'suprisingly' NOT the earliest form of music and in fact did not even become well known until the twenties. Jazz would not be as it is today without BLUES and RAGTIME. Blues---->Ragtime---->Jazz. Blues has been around for probably longer than we have empirical evidence to support such a date, but was becoming well known at the dawn of the twentieth century. Sorry. Also, Joplin did not create Ragtime but did, in fact, add new elements to ragtime that were not established earlier. Very much in the way we think of yes---Elvis, W.C. Handy, and Robert Johnson—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.160.230 (talk • contribs)

Yes, we all know that. Everyone except that guy above you. He's the reason the article is protected from anonymous editors. --Strothra 04:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not the same anonymous editor that claimed that jazz is the earliest form of music. And you also forgot to include march music, minstrel show music and gospel/soul music as influences in the origins of jazz. Bottom line, jazz isn't the earliest form of music (Duh!), Joplin is neither the originator of Ragtime nor Jazz, just one of the best and most popular composers of Ragtime and influenced the development of Jazz and Joplin doesn't count as a Jazz musician nor a Jazz composer.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.62.118 (talk • contribs) 08:45, 18 December 2006

Many years ago I read somewhere that Jass, was the prototype to Jazz, and possibly to Ragtime.--User:W8IMP 00:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Irving Berlin

Edward A. Berlin suggests that there is evidence that Irving Berlin stole "Alexander's Ragtime Band" from Joplin. Should this be entered? Discuss.--75.9.32.43 08:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a citation?--Strothra 13:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

From what I've heard, "Alexander's Ragtime Band" is not actually rag, but rather a piece of music that used the word "rag" in the title to interest the buyer. It's just another "fake" rag.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.110.254 (talk • contribs)

It's a song /about/ a ragtime band. Nothing really fake about it. Also, it's still pretty heavy on the syncopation. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 03:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Not fake (as you point out, it's a real song about a ragtime band), but it's definitely not ragtime. Tin Pan Alley, I'd say. +ILike2BeAnonymous 04:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Berlin's scholarship and research into Joplin's life are staggering. I'm inclined to give his theory serious consideration. He mentions Joplin was required to substantially change one of the songs from his opera Treemonisha to gain copyright, and a newspaper column from the period mentions Joplin was anxious to meet Berlin as he was annoyed about something.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.238.79.81 (talk) 07:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

Accuracy tag

I have removed the accuracy tag as the issues seem to have been resolved. Capitalistroadster 06:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

External links

Anyone wanna tackle getting all the links cleaned up? At a glance, most of what's there fails WP:EL. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 18:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Joplin had several marriages.

Could someone please do something about the above statement. As far as I can make out from the text (apologies if I've missed something), Joplin married twice, in which case, the statement is plainly wrong. Either way, its syntax is way out! Regards, --Technopat 21:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Scottjoplin.jpg

Image:Scottjoplin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 14:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

INSTRUMENT

WHAT INSTRUMENTS DID JOPLIN PLAY? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.61.25 (talk) 15:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Joplin on Piano rolls

Theres is only the Plesant Moments played by himself. The other rolls are all arranged rolls. See footnotes on de:Scott Joplin. Gerhard51 (talk) 09:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

This statement is incorrect. Seven Connorized rolls and one Aeolian Uni-Record roll are labelled as 'Played by Scott Joplin'. The Connorized rolls have been heavily edited, including quantized (making the tempo perfect) and having embellishments added by an editor (the walking bass) but the Aeolian roll is pretty much untouched and is probably almost exactly as Joplin sat down and played it that day in 1916. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.236.172.96 (talk) 12:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Size of Joplin's hands

By some of the massive chords and wide skips in certain piano pieces penned by Scott Joplin, I wonder if he had large hands. I have the same hunch for classical composers Robert Schumann (1810-1856), and Cesar Franck (1822-1890). Musicwriter (talk) 02:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)