Talk:Scotch

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Contents 1 A little history on American English? 2 Working class use in Scotland 3 Whisky 4 Robert Burns used "Scotch" as ="Scottish" 5 Scotch-Irish 6 Imagined insults 7 Clean-up 8 A J P taylor

[edit] A little history on American English?

How did the word "Scotch" in reference to the people of Scotland, rather than the drink of course, survive in American English but not in any other dialects of English? Surely there is a story to be told even if it is just a quick description of how the American English dictionary was compiled to explain the difference. [This unsigned comment by User, 80.41.227.227 - 21 June 06]

it isnt used in other dialects of english because scottish people dont like being called scotch (before you ask how i know this i am scottish and every scottish person i know including myself dont like it)

The obvious explanation would be that it survived (if it really has) for the simple reason that Americans are less likely to meet any Scottish people to set them straight on the matter. --Oolong 17:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Working class use in Scotland

"Scotch is sometimes still used by the working classes who often regard Scots as an anglicised affectation" - Says who? Shouldn't there be a source to this claim. I have live in Scotland all my life and have never heard any Scottish working class person use the word "Scotch" instead of "Scots". [This unsigned comment by User 80.41.221.1539, 80.41.227.227 - 21 June 06]

I agree; I have seen historical references for this, but have no awareness of it as a contemporary phenomenon. --Doric Loon 09:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have taken this out because I too have never come across working class people shying away from the use of 'Scots.' as an 'anglicised affectation' (Where on earth did this come from?) In some of his more anti-Scottish passages George Orwell recommends the use of the word 'Scotch' specifically because it is guaranteed to cause offence to all manners of Scottish people. Rcpaterson 01:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Its in the Oxford Companion to the English Language in an article by A.J. Aitken. It may well only used by auld biddies now though. Still common enough in Ulster though. Perhps rephrase the entry to indicate that that phenomenon is perhaps receding.

84.135.216.35 19:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If it was ever used in this way, the phenomenon has long disappeared. Ivor Cutler used it in 1978 for comic effect: Life in a Scotch Sitting Room, Vol. 2. I think my grandmother, who died at the end of the last century at the age of 103 and had learnt to use the word in her childhood in Lancashire, may have been the last Scot in Scotland to use 'Scotch' seriously (and she was not working class). In modern times, indeed, the word is used in much the same way as 'Yank', 'Frog', 'Kraut', 'Eyetie': to cause mild offence while allowing the user to disclaim any such intention. I have again deleted this weird claim. Ariwara 10:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary says the following under the entry for "Scotch"; "In the 20th c. the word Scotch has been falling into disuse in England as well as in Scotland, out of deference to the Scotsman's supposed dislike of it; except for certain fixed collocations, (such as ‘Scotch mist’, ‘Scotch whisky’) Scottish (less frequently Scots) is now the usual adjective, and to designate the inhabitants of Scotland the pl. n. Scots is preferred (see Gowers/Fowler Mod. Eng. Usage (1965))." Walter Siegmund (talk) 23:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whisky

Maybe Scotch should redirect to Scotch whisky? This seems to be the most current use of the term. I'm not sure how to rename this page, however. Givennovel 02:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

In my experience Scottish people don't say "Scotch Whisky" or "Scotch Pie" at all - just "whisky" and "pie". - Duncan Sneddon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.41.0 (talk) 11:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It shouldn't. I've heard "pint of scotch" in local pubs (N. E. England). Dsalt (talk) 00:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Burns used "Scotch" as ="Scottish"

See the title of his poem, "On a Scotch Bard, Gone to the West Indies" [1] [2], clearly not a "pejorative" usage. -- Ben ^TALK/_HIST 05:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scotch-Irish

I was initially amused to find a citation for the use of Scotch in regard to politicians,[3] but actually it appears that the term "Scotch-Irish"[4] is more common than "Scottish-Irish"[5](an estimated 1,190,000 vs. 284,000 hits). Which term is most correct? Mike Serfas 13:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Imagined insults

I'd suggest that no one outside (outwith?) Scotland thinks that "scotch" has negative connotations. English people use it innocently, Americans use it fondly. It is a mystery how Scottish people have come to consider that it has connotations. The foul calumny of meanness attaches to Scots/Scottish/ Scotch in general (because of people like John Laws, Adam Smith?) never mind which word is used (the slight tendency in America to use 'scotch' to mean 'mean' is perhaps because 'scots' and 'scottish' are less used generally). To my ears 'scots' always sounds mean and hard and slatey. Scottish sounds more heathery. Scotch happier. 88888 23:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Check out the 'Scotch Mist' episode of Garth Merenghi's Darkplace on YouTube. Referring to 'the Scotch' is a tongue-in-cheek running joke among many English people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.202.158 (talk) 14:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

This article seems to have acquired a melange of odd unsourced and unlikely statements, such as the proposition that American lawyers always use the phrase 'Scotch law' (I deal with them daily; they hardly ever do!). I was entertained by the last editor, User:Reginmund, whose user page says he is "proud to be English" and "of Scottish ancestry", asserting in his deletion of the statement that the usage of 'Scotch' was pejorative, that 'Being a Scot, I don't find this offensive at all"(!) and have tried to state a balanced view on this. I have also tried to clean up the paragraph beginning 'Decline in Usage', which has got into a mess due to a combination of (a) wrong use of tags, so that material is invisible, and (b) the inclusion of material which may be interesting but is of no relevance.

On this 'pejorative'/'not pejorative' matter I can only say that the Scottish dislike of the word has been fairly widely (albeit far from universally) known since at least 1908 (see New York Times reference), and as a Scot who works and travels in England and America a fair bit I am very conscious that there is an English usage of 'Scotch' as a genteelly derogatory word, like 'Frog' or 'Dago'; I don't hear it used as a compliment! But I am also conscious that this is not American usage, where it is, in my experience, always innocent. ariwara (talk) 23:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A J P taylor

I'm not sure what makes the "pre-emminant" AJP Taylor an expert on Scottish matters considering the horrible way in which he dismisses Scottish culture in some of his work.-CM

Entirely agree. This is why I deleted that, but I was reverted. I think this SHOULD be removed - or possibly kept as a minority view mentioned somewhere further down, but not highlighted like this. And the "eminent" bit is POV. I'll chage it. --Doric Loon (talk) 09:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)