Talk:Sayings of Jesus on the cross

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[edit] Rename

I presume this article is about the words Jesus Christ is recorded to have spoken on the cross before he died? How about: Last words of Jesus before his death? — Matt 01:33, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

From a cryptographer (very nice edits, BTW) that doesnt seem like a very elegant solution. Think compact, easy to write. No need for caps here.-Stevertigo 02:48, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
PS. Also, (It just occured to me) generally when we say someone's "last words," we don't mean their "last words before they went out to lunch." SV
Yes, usually people say "last words" meaning "last words before they die", because death usually stops people from speaking; but the Christian point of view (and Wikipedia documents all relevant points of view) has it that these weren't the last words of Christ, despite his death (see also: Resurrection). So, to be NPOV with this title, this article would have to include (at least) the post-resurrection sayings recorded in the Gospels and the sayings in the book of Revelation...however, I don't think that's the point of this article; hence the need to rename. — Matt 03:33, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
A very interesting and valid point. However people rarely ressurect themselves, and even in Jesus' case, many scholarly Christians would say that Jesus' "resurrection" was "not of the flesh" rather was a spiritual "resurrection;" hence, "Jesus lives" not because his flesh was preserved, but because he became more than flesh (as we all hope to become). Not to diminish any symbolism, but to be NPOV about it, we should consider that aspect also. Continued below: -Stevertigo
Indeed, we should consider all relevant aspects to be NPOV. However, there clearly exists an opinion that the words in this article were not the "Last words of Jesus" (e.g. the Bible narrates further words attributed to Jesus after his death) — hence the name is POV as it stands. Do you disagree that we need a more neutral name? — Matt 14:15, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple Choice

I haven't been able to find an authoritative name for this collection of phrases -- everyone seems to give them a different title. In this small Google survey, half do not mention the word "last", but almost all mention " on/of/from the cross" -- this should be enough to define which quotes of Jesus the article is about. GUllman 16:59, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Jesus' last words
  • Jesus' final words on the cross (*MC)
  • Seven last sayings of Christ
  • Seven last sayings of the cross
  • Last sayings of Jesus on the cross
  • Seven last words of Christ on the cross
  • Seven words (of Christ) from the cross
  • Sayings of Christ on the cross
  • Seven statements on the cross
  • Seven things Jesus said on the cross
  • The Crucifixion and death of Jesus
Thanks for looking these up. If there's indeed no definitive name, then I'd suggest preferring "sayings" over "words" ("saying" is more precise, as there are many words in each); including "seven"; including "on the cross" — to be specific and avoid POV — hence something like Seven last sayings of Christ on the cross, or if brevity is desired, Sayings of Christ on the cross. — Matt 17:07, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Multiple Choice? :) Words of Jesus on the cross, or Sayings of Jesus on the cross, or maybe Statements attributed to Jesus of Nazareth, as reportedly spoken during the events of his execution by crucifiction seems to me to be OK. ;) (Note, we use Jesus, rather than Christ, because Christ is a title of divinity, given to him. I doubt the man went around and claimed that his last name was "M'shikah" aka messiah, but I digress...) Words of Jesus on the cross seems to be the simplest, while being encyclopedic and decriptive. -Stevertigo 17:12, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
OK, Words of Jesus on the cross is fine by me. — Matt 17:21, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Actually, they're usually called the Seven Last Words of Jesus: this article seems to pick and choose amongst them:

  1. Luke 23:33-34 -- "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
  2. Luke 23:39-43 -- "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
  3. John 19:25-27 -- "Woman, behold your son. Behold your mother."
  4. Mark 15: 33-34 -- "Elo-i, elo-i, lama sabach-thani?"
  5. John 19:28 -- "I thirst."
  6. John 19:29-30 -- "It is finished."
  7. Luke 23:46 -- "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit!"

I think that's the traditional order; the Seven Last Words of Jesus have served as the text of various musical settings, notably Haydn's masterpiece. - Nunh-huh 01:46, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with the move. I think some consensus should have been made first. I appreciate the Selection, but adding items without material is kind of beside the point. Besides, there seems to be just enough matter to justify an article on the basis of the "aEli aEli" quote... Rfy, Stevertigo 02:48, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ah, sorry, I didn't realise there was a great risk of disagreement (be bold, etc). The "Seven Last Words of Jesus" seems to be a proper name referring to these sayings (hence the capitalisation); the current name is descriptive instead, and has the problem that the Bible narrates later words, so the accuracy of the title depends on your POV. — Matt 02:55, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well it would be if this was a Church outfit, but its not. And since NU made the article a kind of encyclopedic catch-all for a number of their various statements and sayings, it should remain encyclopedic. If someone wants to write an article on The Last Words of Jesus about the opera, or the official treatment of these quotes, then thats fine. Stevertigo 03:00, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, the article seemed to be about utterances of Christ on the cross recorded in the Bible; it seems (and it's the first time I've heard it) that these are normally referred to by the name, "The Seven Last Words of Jesus". If that is the topic of the article, then we should use the common name (by Wikipedia policy), regardless of whether this is a "Church outfit" or not. It would seem pointless to have an article about the "last words of Jesus"; there's no famous debate on that topic (as far as I'm aware). — Matt 03:10, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[1] If by NU you mean me, I haven't touched the article. [2] if not, what an NU? [3] it's not an opera. [4] the enumeration of the seven last words is not particular to any specific "Church". - Nunh-huh 03:06, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I added additional phrases to the original "Eloi Eloi" because these seven have a cultural significance as a set. (I just didn't have time to look them all up during my first edit.) To add the phrases Jesus spoke after the Resurrection, although it might be logical/grammatical/NPOV, it would not reflect the use. I vote for the succinct title Last words of Jesus, and find out if there is an authoritative title, and what order they should be in. GUllman 19:59, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Im glad to see some consensus. Perhaps, (as I said above) it would be better to deal with each of these as a separate article. This article could be named as it is, with a short introduction to the formal (capitals) reference (with a link and that new article if necessary) and links to each separate statement. Those references in turn should also be simple and efficient, i.e But to bring a sword, etc. -Stevertigo 01:27, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Major restructuring

I've rewritten the article to fit in with the structure of the 'seven words', as that is what it was covering. I rewrote the section on Eli Eli lema sabachthani as it was based on the dubious work of George Lamsa (minority POV should not stand alone) and a feature film. I've left the external links untouched, but I don't really think they do this article justice. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Please feel free to question my work, I can back up what I say as reasonable and balanced.

Gareth Hughes 21:52, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't like what you did with the parts about Lamsa. The translation he proposed isn't even included on this page or the page where the reader is referred for more details. The article with his name seems to favor those who believe in the Bible as an infallible document and honestly appears quite cruel and one-sided. I think that a lot of what used to be here should be restored into the appropriate articles -- and at least Lamsa's bare-bones proposed translation should be put back on this page. Does anybody disagree? Cookiecaper 08:29, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I found this article to be incomplete and full of mistakes (including a wrong Bible reference). Most of the words were not even commented on, and Eli, Eli was, I feel, heavily biased. Lamsa's views are included in the article, but are clearly indicated as a minority viewpoint. I admit that the comment about his methodology is terse, and could be expanded or deleted. None of the articles about this (George Lamsa and Lamsa Bible) give any reasoned support to his translation. Perhaps those articles should be filled out with more information. However, I think it is wholly reasonable for this article to discuss the accepted majority view before looking at minority views, and to give reasoning behind each of them. If anyone would like to edit the article with evidence supporting Lamsa's understanding of Syriac, it's a free Wikipedia. However, I think it would be inappropriate for the article to be as one-sided in support of a minority position as it was before. At present, the article presents the seven words clearly and in order, with concise and accurate commentary on each. I find it hard to believe that anyone would prefer it as it was before. Gareth Hughes 11:03, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't prefer it the way it was before. I think you did a lot of good for it. I just think that the part that talks about Lamsa's research shouldn't be so "terse", as you put it, and should have more than one sentence dedicated to it in this article. I'll edit, and you can tell me what you think. :) Cookiecaper 04:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the edit. Do you have a book by Errico or Lamsa to draw on? I ask only because I'm not entirely sure what they are saying. Most people reading this article won't be able to read Aramaic, and would be unable to judge the veracity of their claim.

I think a good piece of supporting evidence would be the Peshitta text of Mt 27:46 & Mk 15:34 which reads 'Îl Îl lmânâ švaqtân(y)'. This version is not attested in any other ms, and differs by conflating the spoken word with the translation (assuming that things happened that way round).

There is little real difference between the interrogative 'lmâ' and 'lmânâ', 'for this' is 'lhânâ'. Apart from the translation of the verb 'švaq' (its basic meaning is 'to leave, go away'), the rest of that word suggests a 2nd person singular subject, and 1st person singular object (you ... me). So, the 'translation' offered by Lamsa/Errico makes no sense.

If you can find a copy of what either of them did say, I would love to hear it, because this just puzzles me. All that 'E-lee'-stuff just looks a bit amateur. The Greek text (attested nowhere) and 'later Aramaic' (what?) just seem like the kind of vagueries that pull the wool over people's eyes. I'm sure that Lamsa/Errico must have said something a bit more solid than this.

Gareth Hughes 13:46, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Komboucha

The latest edit added these words to the section on I thirst:

The "sour wine" or "vinegar" was likely a variant of the fermented tea komboucha, based in a cultured mushroom, and known among herbalists for its healing properties.

The article on komboucha does not support the idea of this being available in first-century Levant, and this seems like high fantasy. If there was a referrence to support this claim, it would be alright to include it. I'll comment it out until it can be properly supported. Gareth Hughes 15:55, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christian myth

Someone requested I explain my edits here. This is an event/quote from the major christian myth, the cruxifiction, which is itself part of the central christian myth (you cannot be christian and not follow the myth of jesus christ), ergo it is a christian myth. 134.161.138.166 23:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. I think these words are an important part of Christian mythos. Unfortunately, many people feel that myth is a loaded word, and that it is about destroying faith rather than seeking to understand it. Then there are structural issues about how we use catagories in Wikipedia. The other two catagories are Category:Jesus and Category:Gospel episodes. I think both of these are non-controversial. The question is whether another catagory is needed, and whether the subject of this article fits with other articles in Category:Christian mythology. This category has quite an eclectic mix of articles that mostly tend more towards superstition than religion (some would ask what's the difference!). Looking at it, I think that there's, perhaps, more of a call to rename the category. It already has an awkward rider about its name. Finally, I think you've had enough time to read and understand the 3 revert rule, and so I'm expecting you to desist from reverting the article for 24 hours from your last revert. Endlessly reverting back and forth between versions of an article is pretty pointless, and wastes time and resources. For this reason, users who revert the same article more than three times in a day can have their ability to edit suspended for a day. If your questions regarding Christian mythology cover a number of articles, it might be more appropriate to hold a debate at category talk:Christian mythology. --Gareth Hughes 00:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Even if this subject were "mythology", which is pretty obviously a POV that is not widely shared - it would be a superfluous cat, because "Gospel Episodes" is already included in the subcat tree. This was all discussed at length (3 pages worth) on Category talk:Christian mythology and the clear overwhelming consensus there is to use the subcat system and not push the POV that the Bible is mythology... Codex Sinaiticus 00:52, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move to "Sayings" of Jesus in the cross

Considering three facts, I feel that it makes sense to move this article to "Sayings of Jesus on the Cross":

  1. The word Sayings is more accurate in describing the phrases of Jesus while on the cross, as each of these things is a phrase, which is more accurately described as a Saying, than as a word.
  2. Doing a Google search on the two possible titles for this page, yields the following results: "Sayings of Jesus on the cross" = 399 hits. "Words of Jesus on the cross" = 706 hits. To me these results seem to indicate that both titles are used with almost the same frequency, and a decision to use the more accurate description should not create any significant difficulty for those who would study this.
  3. A redirect can be left under the title "Words of Jesus on the cross" to further assist those who might study this.

Please feel free to comment...

-Scott P. 18:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

As no comments made, proceeded with move.
-Scott P. 00:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Texts that omit the saying: "forgive them, for they know not what they do"

Dear Monkeysage,
I tried to follow some of the links you provided on why it is noted in the article that some manuscripts omit this saying. The only early manuscript that I was able to find that actually omitted this saying was the Codex Vaticanus, which is known to be a later, copied and corrected codex than the Codex Sinaiticus. The earlier Codex Sinaiticus does include this passage. Do you know of any other actual fourth century or earlier codices that omit this? It seems to me that unless there are other fourth century manuscripts that omit it, that it may not be a fair representation that 'manuscripts are evenly divided' on this, as much greater value is generally placed on earlier manuscripts than on later ones. Comments? Please check out the Majority Text Society's support of the authenticity of this passage at: The Majority Text Society's position on 'Father forgive them'.

-Scott P. 16:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


Hi Scott. I gave the list in the footnote.
Exclude: P75 1א [first corrector of Sinaiticus] B [Vaticanus] D* [original hand of D] W Θ 070 579 1241 pc sys sa
Include: 2,*א [second corrector and original hand] (A) C D2 [second corrector of D] L Ψ 0250 f1,(13) 33 M [Majority text-type] lat syc,p,h
This list is partially given in the article you link:
"p75, a corrector of Aleph, B, D, W, Theta and 070"
"the original hand of the Uncials Aleph, C, L, and Psi, 0250"
The article also states:
"Both traditions have early support into the second and third centuries A.D., and of course the Majority Text would have far superior numerical support. The two major uncials of the Alexandrian texts a and B are split in their testimony. The Western tradition is split (D and Latin), while the Majority/Byzantine text is united."
Also, by "fairly evenly divided" is not meant in terms of number of manuscripts, but in terms of the weight given to the manuscripts by textual-critical scholars.
The NET Bible footnote from which the list was taken, states:
"It also fits a major Lukan theme of forgiving the enemies (6:27-36), and it has a parallel in Stephen’s response in Acts 7:60. The lack of parallels in the other Gospels argues also for inclusion here. On the other hand, the fact of the parallel in Acts 7:60 may well have prompted early scribes to insert the saying in Luke’s Gospel alone. Further, there is the great difficulty of explaining why early and diverse witnesses lack the saying. A decision is difficult, but even those who regard the verse as inauthentic literarily often consider it to be authentic historically. For this reason it has been placed in single brackets in the translation."[2]
So I think it is a generous representation of the scholarly consensus to say that the manuscripts are "fairly evenly divided," since most modern translations put the expression in brackets and many textual-critical scholars consider P75, because of its early date (c. 200), to trump all other manuscripts apart from very good internal evidence (the article you link notes that "under most circumstances a p75 alignment with B in the gospels is considered extremely strong evidence in Alexandrian priority theory and practice"). In other words, I think it is more than fair to the Majority text advocates to say "even," in that it acknowledges their view that the Majority text should have equal weight with the earlier Alexandrian texts, which is not the view of most modern textual-critical scholars (e.g., Nestle, Metzger, Wallace). --MonkeeSage 18:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


Dear Monkeysage,
I apologize, but I can not find any Biblical scholars who would summarize the validity of Luke 23:34 using the words: "evenly divided". I have done several Google searches on the verse, contrasting it with the words "omit", and with the phrase "evenly divided". Nowhere could I find any Bible scholar who used the phrase "evenly divided" to describe the status of the verse, other than articles which were copies of the Wikipedia article. Doing a Google search contrasting the word "omit" with the verse, a clear majority of the relevant hits stated that the validity of the verse as original or accurate was "most probable". Could you please clarify for me which source you were quoting from when you used the term: "evenly divided" to describe the status of this verse?
It seems to me that the types of references and citations that work best in Wikipedia are references to sources for direct quotes that directly and unequivocably document the assertions made in an article, rather than references which may require the reader to have to step through some sort of a lengthy deductive reasoning process that may (or may not) be compatible with the most commonly held theories about the matter.
Thanks,
-Scott P. 13:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


Scott: The phrase was already in the article, it is not mine, I only added the manuscript evidence footnote and did a minor copyedit to the sentence containing the phrase. But I do think that the phrase is factually verifiable.
Regarding the issue of whether the variant is generally regarded as "most probable" (which is a different issue than whether the manuscripts evidence is evenly divided), the UBS3/4 and NA26/27 texts place the reading in brackets, as do some modern translations (NET, NRSV), while others note that "some early manuscripts do not have this sentence" (NIV, ESV), and the NKJV points out that NA27 puts the sentence in brackets denoting that it is a later addition. The UBS gives it a rating of "C":
"C means that there is a considerable degree of doubt whether the text or the apparatus [a footnote where variant readings are listed] contains the superior reading. . .[C] indicates that the committee had difficulty in deciding which variant to place in the text" (K. D. Clarke and K. Bales, "The Construction of Biblical Certainty: Textual Optimism and the United Bible Society's Greek New Testament," in D. G. K. Taylor ed., Studies in the Early Text of the Gospels and Acts, Texts and Studies, 3rd Series, 1 [Birmingham: University of Birmingham Press, 1999], pp. 91, 92).
This matches the NET translator's note (Wallace, et. al.) cited above: "[a] decision is difficult." And Bruce Metzger, commenting on the UBS decision to put the text in brackets, says:
"The absence of these words from. . .early and diverse. . .witnesses is most impressive and can scarcely be explained as a deliberate excision by copyists who, considering the fall of Jerusalem to be proof that God had not forgiven the Jews, could not allow it to appear that the prayer of Jesus had remained unanswered. At the same time, the logion [saying], though probably not a part of the original Gospel of Luke, bears self-evident tokens of its dominical origin, and was retained, within double square brackets, in its traditional place where it had been incorporated by unknown copyists relatively early in the transmission of the Third Gospel." (A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition [New York: United Bible Societies, 1994], p. 154).
Frederick W. Danker, an editor of the standard lexicon, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, wrote:
"The prayer in vs. 34 is in such harmony with the spirit of Luke's gospel and his picture of Jesus that it is difficult to question its authenticity. Yet is even more difficult to account for its omission in a number of manuscripts. It has indeed been argued that the prayer was omitted because of a conviction that the destruction of Jerusalem was God's judgment for the crucifixion, but a similar omission does not appear at Acts 2:38-39, where forgiveness is proclaimed to Israel. It is more probable that the prayer uttered by Stephen (Acts 7:60) suggested a parallel utterance for the passion account. Also, in its present position it interrupts Luke's sketch of the mockery and destroys the dramatic impact of the word addressed to the repentant outlaw (vs. 43)." (Jesus and the New Age according to St. Luke: A Commentary on the Third Gospel, [St. Louis: Clayton Publishing, 1972], p. 237).
So I think that saying the manuscript evidence is fairly evenly divided is factually correct, and that the implications regarding the modern scholarly consensus are accurate, and that it is very fair to the minority viewpoint (which holds the Majority textform above or in equal regard with the Alexandrian textform). » MonkeeSage « 15:41, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] A published analysis of what portion of the manuscripts incorporate Luke 23:34

Dear Monkey Sage,

Undoubtedly there is indeed some question as to the dominicality of the verse, but still, all published evaluations of the actual early manuscript presence of the verse, that I have come across directly state summaries of the early manuscript presence of the verse such as:

(e) Christ's Prayer for His Murderers
Luke 23:34a "Then said Jesus, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
This disputed reading is found in the vast majority of the New Testament manuscripts, including Aleph, A, C, L, N. and also in certain manuscripts of the Old Latin version, in the Curetonian Syriac manuscript and in the Peshitta, Harclean, and Philoxenian versions. It is also cited or referred to by many of the Church Fathers, including the following: in the 2nd century, Tatian (60) Irenaeus; (61) in the 3rd century, Origen; in the 4th century, Basil, Eusebius, and others. The reading is omitted, on the other hand, by the following witnesses: Papyrus 75, B. D, W. Theta, 38, 435, certain manuscripts of the Old Latin version, the Sinaitic manuscript of the Old Syriac version, and the Coptic versions (with the exception of certain manuscripts). Cyril of Alexandria is also listed as omitting the reading, but, as Hort admitted, this is only an inference. fbinstitute.com textual analysis

I feel that a better summary of the known existent questions about this verse might read something like:

Some noteworthy Biblical scholars have expressed their beliefs that this verse may not have existed in the earliest (now lost) manuscripts.

Thanks, Scott

PS: My apologies for my mistaken assumption that you were the original author of this sentence about the evenly divided presence of this verse in early manuscripts.

-Scott P. 18:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Scott: I included the ms. information in the footnote, with a link to the source. What did I miss that Hills lists? AFAICT, the list I gave is more complete, not less. Regarding your proposal, I'm not sure what you mean — the mss. which lack the expression are still extant, they are not lost (for example, P75). It is a fact that many manuscripts exclude the passage. And it is also a fact that most textual-critical scholars of the NT believe that the expression is not original, though they believe it is very old and consistent with the theology of the NT. I think that the current form of the article is accurate on several levels: there are quite a few mss. and patristics which exclude the expression; several which exclude it are considered by the majority of textual-critical scholars to be the most ancient and weighty; calling the manuscript evidence "evenly divided" actually elevates the position of the minority position (scholarly Majority text advocates like Hills and Burgeon) by allowing that the Byzantine-type mss. are equally weighty. In all honesty, I see no reason to change article as it stands. » MonkeeSage « 19:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


Dear Monkee Sage: I apologize if I have not yet made myself clear. The difference as I see it is that Hill's research speaks directly to the question at hand, namely the question of the ratio of the presence of the verse in the earliest manuscripts. From what I could read of the citations you have listed, none of them directly address the question at hand, namely the question of the ratio of the presence of the verse in the earliest manuscripts. From what I could read, all of the citations you have listed were summaries of the various positions of various Biblical scholars on their personal opinions of the dominicality of the verse, and not specifically their findings on the ratio of omissions in early manuscripts. If you might be able to provide a single published reference that directly refutes the Hill article and states clearly that the verse is omitted from roughly half or more of the early manuscripts, then I might be able to begin to justify the presence of this statement in the article. Until then, unless we can establish a published source that speaks specifically on this question and clearly refutes the published Hill article, it seems to me that we ought not to publish a conclusion that is contrary to known published sources on this specific question.
Also, if you could find a published and widely accepted source that states that most textual-critical scholars of the NT believe that the expression is not original, then that would be fine with me to include in the article too. But until more direct documentation can be found, I still feel that neither of these statements would be suitable for the article.
Regarding my reasoning for my proposed reference to the earliest (now lost) manuscripts... It seems to me that these very earliest (now lost) manuscripts are what this entire question revolves around, no? Do we not all operate under the twin assumptions that the very earliest manuscripts of the Gospels are now lost, and also that the texts of these very earliest manuscripts are what we are trying to reconstruct?
Thanks,
-Scott P. 20:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


Scott: Again, the NET Bible translator's note[3]:
Many important mss (P75 1א B D* W Θ 070 579 1241 pc sys sa) lack v. 34a. It is included in א*,2 (A) C D2 L Ψ 0250 f1,(13) 33 M lat syc,p,h. It also fits a major Lukan theme of forgiving the enemies (6:27-36), and it has a parallel in Stephen’s response in Acts 7:60. The lack of parallels in the other Gospels argues also for inclusion here. On the other hand, the fact of the parallel in Acts 7:60 may well have prompted early scribes to insert the saying in Luke’s Gospel alone. Further, there is the great difficulty of explaining why early and diverse witnesses lack the saying. A decision is difficult, but even those who regard the verse as inauthentic literarily often consider it to be authentic historically. For this reason it has been placed in single brackets in the translation.
This is the same mss. list as appears in the apparatus of both the UBS4 and the NA27. This is the list in the article footnote right now (with a link to the NET Bible note) and which I mentioned in my first post to you above (did you miss it?).
Regarding the statement "most textual-critical scholars of the NT believe that the expression is not original" — I don't have to show a source that states that, if I can show that it is an accurate description. There are two ways of showing that: to survey all scholars and count noses, or to look at a representative sample from the highly regarded scholars who, by the fact that their works are standard references, show that they represent the most widely accepted view. I took the later tact above: Bruce Metzger represents both the committee of Greek NT scholars who have worked on the UBS edition GNT, and the scholars who have worked on the NRSV, both of which decided that the expression was not likely original and put it in brackets, with the UBS committee giving it a "C" rating (as explined above). The NET Bible (Daniel B. Wallace, senior NT editor) likewise brackets it. Kurt and Barbara Aland represent the committee of Greek NT scholars who have worked on the NA edition GNT, which also uses brackets to denote a later addition. But this is somewhat of a moot point, because I don't really want the sentence included in the article, because I don't want to end up with a big discussion about textual criticism and text-types and so on in the article, when all the reader really needs to know is that the ms. evidence can be interpreted either way, and what the ms. evidence is, and then they can make up their own mind or research the matter more fully if they want to. » MonkeeSage « 21:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How about if we report directly what is published?

Dear Monkee Sage,
What if we simply revised the sentence to read what is probably most closely representative of most In-Bible-Biblical-Commentaries, namely:

Many early manuscripts omit this saying.

rather than having to debate all of this?

-Scott P. 01:16, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

That's fine with me. :) Thanks for taking the time to work this out. » MonkeeSage « 04:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you too for working together with me on this one. I very much enjoyed working with you on this point. Your suggestions and observations here have significantly enhanced this article on this point of information. Small though the point may seem to be, I feel it is a very important piece of information as it does seem to me to summarize much about Jesus' teachings, and the more accurate the article is on this point, the better.
-Scott P. 12:20, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


Scott: Would you have any objections to:

Several important, early manuscripts omit this saying; most others, some of equal antiquity, include it.[1]

[. . .]

  1. ^ Omit: P75 1א B D* W Θ 070 579 1241 pc sys sa. Include: א*,2 (A) C D2 L Ψ 0250 f1,(13) 33 M lat syc,p,h [1]

This is still just reporting what the published materials say, but it also gives those who are interested access to the mss. evidence. » MonkeeSage « 16:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the POV template?

Dear Clinkophonist,
Could you please explain why the POV template?

Thanks, -Scott P. 17:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

As there seemed to be no objections or desire to discuss the reasoning for the POV template, I am now removing it from the article page.
-Scott P. 18:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Query on "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Is there no tradition of discussion of this saying that it might mean what it appears to on a plain reading -- that Jesus, in his suffering, has a moment of doubt and feels that he has been forsaken by God? I realize that this is at variance with probably most traditional Christian theology and Christology, and thus the elaborate interpretations of what it means in terms of echoes of Psalms, but to a bystander not pre-convinced about the divinity of Jesus, the meaning of this sentence coming out of a man being tortured to death would seem rather obvious. --Jfruh (talk) 04:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm no theologian and I can't speak definitively about this "moment of doubt" angle, which is an idea that has always troubled me a bit. An even more plain and simple reading would be that Jesus is simply asking a question, "Why have you you forsaken me?" Why indeed? What was God's purpose in this sacrifice? Why was it done? "Has it been done in vain?", he must have wondered as the soldiers gambled for his robes. Perhaps Jesus is simply wondering about the objective. Perhaps His question wasn't a lament at all; perhaps it was simply a query. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.59.9.52 (talk) 18:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Nope. Gospel notes that he Shouted this, and the fact that he is quoted in his native Aramaic language, and not to mention he was dying, nailed to a cross! I highly doubt anyone would be simply asking, "Hey Dad, what's up with no-show?" Cuvtixo (talk) 13:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


It is often described as revealing Jesus' human aspect, and it is very much part of traditional Christian theology. Jesus is defined to be one person with a fully human and a fully divine nature, a doctrine known as the Hypostatic union. Yes, of course "bystanders" did not become Christians, and the Bible documents loss of faith of the remaining 11 apostles after the crucifixion. This is also part of the reason why many Christians insist faith in the resurrection is primary to Christianity, and even a strict adherence to Jesus' teachings and philosophy without faith in the resurrection does not constitute a Christian life. Cuvtixo (talk) 13:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Cuvtixo, you seem knowledgable and keen. I too am keen to understand, so let us continue the above discussion regarding the 'moment of doubt.' How do we actually know what Jesus meant? How do we know the translation is not mistaken? Most importantly, what does the Vatican say about the meaning of His statement?--198.53.181.86 (talk) 19:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bible Verse Finder Jeol Nothman at php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/

Each of the sayings is presently linked to Joel Nothman's "Bible verse finder" on his student account at the University of Sydney. While it is a great tool for finding various translations, it is disconcerting to have these links to a temporary student account. It might also be more appropriate to give a single link instead of linking individual verses- especially without full disclosure of the site source beforehand. Is there some alternative that could be used? Cuvtixo (talk) 13:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

This page uses a standard template. I suggest you raise your concerns at Template talk:Bibleverse. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On the behold your mother behold your son part...

At the end it makes it seem as if Protestants and Evangelicals belive Jesus had siblings, which is obviously not necessarily true. I mean they could believe that but it's not something they belive as part of their religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.140.66.28 (talk) 00:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Many Protestants believe the Bible teaches that Jesus had brothers. See James the Just#Relationship to Jesus. - Fayenatic (talk) 20:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)