Talk:Sauna

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Contents

[edit] Sauna as English language euphemism for brothel

"Some adult-only saunas have different rules; the term "sauna" is also used for a bath-house, sometimes with facilities like a standard sauna, but where people go to find sexual partners and have sex on the premises. Some such saunas rent small rooms for this purpose. "

Do we have any examples where this happens? I am reliably informed this does not happen in Finland and that saunas there are near-sacred and more traditional than the above implies.

--/Mat 23:17, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sauna is a euphamism for brothel in most parts of the UK. Of course, you get suanas in gyms and leisure centres that are not, but Saunas on streets are brothels. Secretlondon 23:20, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to add that saunas in general are places for relaxing, very often in the early evenings at weekends.. and first and foremost a whole family event! No dirty business going on - No comment on couples. -Suz, a Finn

Great, I think we have the euphamistic usages cleared up. --/Mat 00:53, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I heard about "Sauna clubs" for sex before, though. There was even a court ruling in Sweden to prohibit them.

The article states that engaging in sexual activities is impractical at 100 degrees. As the temperature is around 40 on the lower benches, this is not quite correct. That is, however, not the point. In a mixed-gender nude relaxation environment there are rules on behavior: call it ethics. In Dutch public saunas they are (should be) strictly enforced, thereby settting themselves apart from places that confuse sauna with sex and from people that do so. Entering "Gay sauna" in Google, for example, will produce hundreds of hits in the Netherlands. And a new search engine/function openly lists public saunas among sex clubs. An outrage, to say the least. So in the Netherlands the euphemistic use is still on, I'm afraid. May I suggest that the line on practicality in the article be replaced by one on ethics? --Sander1453--81.205.148.151 10:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

But when "sauna" is used euphemistically as a front for a brothel or "bathhouse", does it actually involve sex in a hot sauna, or any sauna, properly defined, for that matter? I don't have any personal knowledge, but I tend to doubt it. Langrel 14:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mythical importance of Sauna for the survival of the Finns

Sauna also played a major role during the winter war against U.S.S.R in 1939. When the temperature could easily drop below -20 celsius, the sauna became very useful since it prevented effectively the spread of common diseases among the soldiers and had emotional effects. When considering reasons how Finns managed so long in front of a superior enemy, many claim that sauna, which the Russians didn't have, was the key to remain independency.
213.243.187.21

Sauna in Finnish military installments is a interesting topic also in general. It is told that when Finnish peacekeepers arrive on their mission, they first build a sauna while living on tents, and only when finished start building barracks. Also as far as I know, there is a sauna in every military garrison in Finland. Accommodation in garrisons is usually very modest, and the existence of saunas in those places very well describes the Finnish attitude that sauna is a necessity, not a luxury. Garrison saunas are perhaps the largest saunas in regular use, sized so that it is possible for a whole company or battery of soldiers to take bath in one or two turns. Exercise areas have smaller saunas (squad or platoon size), offering a refreshing break during hard combat exercises. Soldiers taking care of saunas are often called "saunamajuri" in finnish military slang, that is "sauna major"; they are usually conscripts, but calling them "major" is a sign of just how important finns keep sauna. Whereas on civilian side it is sometimes said that there are no gender in sauna, in military it is said that there are no rank in sauna; taking off clothes, insignia of rank is also taken off. Finnish peacekeepers in Kosovo built a sauna from two local trucks /TN 18:38, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

This is right. A notion of how Finns feel the Sauna culture having contributed to our survival through history, including how Finns may regard themselves as superior to neighbouring peoples considered dirty and susceptible for parasites and diseases would however need to be worded carefully in order to reach the encyclopedical standard we strive for. /Tuomas 12:08, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Finnish sauna?!

I find it odd that there should be two seperate articles for sauna and Finnish sauna, as "sauna" is in and of itself a solely Finnish word and institution. Turkish or Roman baths are not saunas and should not get a mention so early in the article but perhaps a link at the end. "Sauna" is derived from the Finnish word "savuna" (roughly: "in a state of smoke") and the Russian and Swedish versions are imports from Finland. I think this article needs to be seriously rethought and have its center of focus changed drastically. Too much attention is paid to foreign (non-Finnish) attitudes towards sauna than the history of sauna itself. I'll be prepared to handle this huge task granted there are no objections.--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo|TALK]] 20:40, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

No objections. Quite the contrary! Please do!/Tuomas 15:02, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
No objections, please go for it. How about making Finnish sauna detail the origins and history and Finn-specific parts, and sauna would be the general worldwide term with a link like see Finnish sauna for detailed history? I know the sauna originated in Finland, but I do think that the sauna article itself should exist in roughly its present form (ie worldwide applicability). Mat-C 23:06, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Alright, I'll get working on Finnish sauna. I'll add a disambiguating heading of some sort to sauna when I'm done.--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo|TALK]] 13:35, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)
Damn! I should have checked this discussion page first, before I added a large section on Finnish Sauna Customs to the page. I was planning to edit the other sections and move the relevant information there. I have now left my additions there with hardly any editing on the rest of article. I have no objections if somebody wants to do some drastic editing. I will probably do something myself in a week or two if there are no objections. Perhaps Finnish sauna should only be a redirect to sauna. The idea about removing Turkish steam bath material is good. --Chino 15:33, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree that this article needs a change of focus, but it's not just a case of whether it merges with Finnish. Where does this article fit in with the rest of the Bathing category? The opening suggests that any sweat/heat bathing facility is considered as a sauna, yet the majority of the article focuses on Finnish-style saunas.
As I see it, the Sauna article presently has content for potentially three articles:
  • Details of Finnish Sauna (history, usage, terminology)
  • Varieties of sweat/heat baths throughout history of world (largely a list page with place and date of origin - ie the 'thermae'/'sweat lodge' bit)
  • Varieties of Sauna usage throughout the world (which would repeat the modern usage parts of the Finnish Sauna article)
There appears consensus on removing the other varieties out of this article. There exists a Finnish Sauna article. Logically then, sauna *should* be about the worldwide varieties of sauna usage - as effectively people worldwide think of different things when they think "sauna", but "Finnish sauna" can only mean Finnish sauna. I appreciate that the word is Finnish but it's not my fault that the world has attributed different meanings.
So I suggest the bulk of Finnish detail be moved to Finnish sauna, a sweat bathing article be created, and a newly focused Sauna article begins with the (italicised?) sentences "The original sauna is the Finnish sauna. The word sauna is now commonly used to mean many types of sweat bathing facility, some of which predate the Finnish version. This article details the modern global use of the Finnish-style sauna."
Alternatively, if merging with Finnish sauna is desirable, then sauna becomes a long article with the Finnish information as the first section and subsequent sections noting variations from the Finnish. We still spin out the Other Types Of Hot Room article, and kick Sauna off with "The word sauna is now commonly used to mean many types of sweat bathing facility. This article details the Finnish version and modern global usage."
Thoughts?
--PaulGregory 13:23, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The fact that the word "sauna" is derived of a finnish root is not more and not less than an ethymological fact. All notions that the English word "sauna" denotes should be included, additionally facts about ethymology, history and internationally different notions of "sauna". If "sauna" has a more general meaning than the Finnish counterpart; and if "finnish sauna" has a more limited meaning, possibly more like the original,- so be it. -- Unknown user, 16 January 2006 This comment has been moved to better fit the chronology of the comments; it had been inserted between the first comment and the various agreements.
I think this makes sense. To an extent it would be like me complaining about the term "British English" meaning the English variant of English. I think there are more voices in favour of clarifying the two sauna pages than for actually merging them. I am therefore calling off the merger, as it has not happened in 18 months, and I intend to edit the two pages to make the distinction clearer and avoid overlap. PaulGregory 16:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
The bulk of this is now complete. By and large Finnish sauna is the tradition and sauna is the modern. Although the stuff about Roman baths is still in the article, they have been demoted. There is still further work to be done on this article; I concede that sauna should have more scientific citations. There is ambiguity as to which nation's variety of sauna any given statement is talking about and there are many contradictory statements remaining. I'd also like to group together the general nudity references which litter the article. PaulGregory 16:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Finnish dress code

"In sauna it is a faux pas to wear clothing in the hot room. [...] In public saunas one also sees signs prohibiting the wear of swimming suits in the hot room."

According to some other sources on the web, nudity in the Finnish sauna is merely the norm and not a rule. Who is right? Moreover, in hotels/hostels that take many guests from abroad, I can imagine chaos ensuing between people who have different conceptions (or none at all) of sauna dress code. -- Smjg 19:08, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Both. In Finland and Scandinavia, a towel (or for women, maybe two towels) is what you use to hide your nudity, if there is a need for that. I guess that hotels and hostels typically have more than one sauna, or other arrangements to avoid mixed-sex bathing, so there would be no problem, I think (being from a family that due to WWII was dispersed from Karelia I've relatives to visit in any town I could think of to go to, so I've never been a guest to a hotel in Finland). But foreign guests usually seem to follow the rule, When in Rome, do as the Romans; and Finns who receive guests from abroad to their homes know that customs connected to nudity are somewhat different on the European continent, and try not to make the guests feel uncomfortable. Sauna and chaos doesn't fit together. Chaos is to be avoided. :-) /Tuomas 23:19, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


I live in Finland and here in sauna everybody is naked. But in public saunas there are usually mens sauna and womens sauna but still everybodys naked (sorry for my bad english) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.81.107 (talk) 12:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Maybe it could be mentioned that sauna is the only finnish word that is in common use in the entire world.

What about "Nokia" ? :-)
Atlant 12:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, even in Finland most people aren't thinking about furry little animals when they hear the word Nokia. --Tragos 09:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
What about "Sisu"?

"Sisu"?? The national anthem of Eritreia?? I know what you mean, but no other than finnish people seem to use it naturally, in the contrary of Sauna. Nokia is a brand, as Toyota for instance. This doesn't mean it is a word with a "meaning" for the world... If it is true that sauna is the only finnish word worldwide used (I am portuguese, for instance, and we do use it), it is a nice trivia.

There's a slight difference between Nokia the brand and Toyota the brand. Nokia is the name of a town where Nokia, the company, began operations (making rubber products like cable and boots, I believe), Toyota is a shortening of several words that escape me this second. This may or may not be significant in this context.Aki Korhonen 15:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we should compare Nokia and Kawasaki? Even when the brand Kawasaki is not named after the city of Kawasaki. --Tirkka (talk) 23:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I know another word!! Rapakivi... and in english i think it is the rapakivistone. and in german das rapakivi. it is a kind of stone that exists only in finnland and in sweden. it is remains of (dunno the english word) svekofennidit. se on muuttunut kivilaji, joka rapautuu helposti.. please if someone knows more about them, write an article!!Kangaskauppias

Like this: Rapakivi granite? Langrel 05:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steam bath, Dry Sauna, and Wet Sauna

It is my understanding that a steam bath or vapor room heats water directly and has a humidity aproaching 100%. In contrast saunas heat the air and have relativly no humidity. A wet sauna and dry sauna is solely a matter of weather water is poured over the rocks or not (thus temporarly increasing the humidity).

So when you go into a sauna it's a dry sauna, and then when you put the water on the rocks it becomes a wet one? :-) -- Smjg 09:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
In the case of Finnish public saunas, a dry sauna means that throwing water on the rocks is not allowed. For obvious reasons, public saunas over 100 °C (212 °F) are dry saunas by default.
I've never seen a sauna where you're not allowed to throw water on the rocks in Finland. However, I've been told that such saunas exist at least in Sweden. I must add that I've never been in a sauna which is constantly held in over 100 °C and they may have different rules but in general I don't think a sauna where you're not supposed to throw water on stones is truly a Finnish sauna.

In a steam bath or vapor room humidity excedes 100%, hence the visible vapor. It's one of three (?) ways to heat the body in (Dutch) public saunas; by radiation in the sauna, by condensation in the steam room or by conduction in the jacuzzi. Sander--81.205.148.151 09:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion and clarification requests

 Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

I've added some {{fact}} tags where some citations to reliable sources would be helpful.

  • Some additional discussion on the science of toxin-elimination (which is a nice thought, but probably mostly bogus) and immune system response would be nice. Someone mentioned to me that the hot-sweat-cold cycle was supposed to clear pores, which sounds plausible, but it would be nice to know if this is actually true.
 
* Saunas are powerful detoxifiers, in fact, if you "used" recently, don't sauna if you are
 about to start a new job!  There is quite a bit of research on detoxing "fat soluable" 
 drug residue in a sauna, especially when combined with exercise and vitamin B3- Niacin as
 recommended at many Narcotics Anonymous web sites.  Some of us are now addicted to sauna - 
 any research on that?
User:Reevasso|Reevasso]] 14:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Isn't wood smoke carcinogenic and otherwise unhealthy to breathe? That should probably be mentioned in the part on smoke saunas.
As it is said in the document, smoke is ventilated out.
  • I assume the curing of diseases in days gone by is meant somewhat tongue in cheek, but it would be nice to have a citation to additional reading on this topic.
  • What hygiene rationale could there be for disallowing swimsuits in a sauna, other than the chlorine? This paragraph may need to be cleaned up, or at least clarified.

-- Beland 09:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

There are at least two hygiene rationales:
The first is be more to do with going from the sauna to the pool. A sweaty swimsuit in a pool is not a good thing. I guess "if you must wear a swimsuit, don't wear the same one as you do in the pool and be sure to shower naked between sauna and pool" would be a clearer rule, but "No Swimsuits" is easier.
Secondly, retaining personal sweat within a swimsuit is not good for personal hygiene.
However in the UK and elsewhere, "hygiene" is cited as the reason for making swimwear compulsory; I have even seen this horrific misunderstanding introduced to single-sex saunas.
I agree the paragraph needs cleaning up, but I think the wider issue of whether the page merges with Finnish Sauna needs to be resolved, which will have an impact on the general structure of the article.
For example, the paragraph in question is in the Finnish section, and should thus cite Finnish rationale, but other worldwide thought should feature somewhere.
There is potential for a Saunas and Swimwear section listing the global reasons for and against swimwear in saunas (both hygiene and etiquette). This subject is referred to more often than heat in the current article, and bringing the references together would aid clarity on the subject. Given that the article itself says that this is a source of confusion for tourists, that's probably a good thing.
I'm happy to do the expansion but would appreciate additional thoughts.
-- PaulGregory 12:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
  • There are citation requests for things everyone (in Finland) knows are true; for example, of course women have given births in saunas. Every Finn can confirm that, and they did that long before anyone could even read or write anything to cite. It is almost like requesting a citation to prove that people "live in their homes" or "eat food". Maybe a citation is required also to verify that the women who gave births in saunas had had sex (with men) nine months earlier? How can we verify that, if there is no citation? If you need citations, cite me. I hereby confirm that women have given births in saunas in Finland, for example my grandmother was born that way. So, please remove citation requests for obvious common facts, or cite me, or call me a liar.
  • There is not a word about blood-letting (Finnish: "kuppaaminen"), which is a Finnish strongly sauna-related tradition.

Sakaal 21:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Health Benefits

It seems as though the part about Health Benefits is copied from this webpage: http://www.saunafin.com/health_benefits.htm

Saunafin is a company that sells "Saunas, Sauna Kits, Pre-Fab Saunas, Sauna Heaters, Infrared Saunas and Steambath Generators" - hardly an objective source. Shouldn't this part be removed unless we find some trustworthy scientific source?


With chronically ill people the amount of exercise that they can initially tolerate in recuperation may be insufficient to burn off excess stress hormones, so another way is needed to achieve this. The temperature changes of therapeutic sauna can help and this has other benefits as well. When first used gradual increases in heating and cooling are recommended. Therapeutic sauna reduces stress hormones and the cardiac workload is considered about half that of a walk, so initial exposure time is important also. The hypothalamus in our brain controls the balance homeostasis of the autonomic nervous system between the ACTION sympathetic and the RELAXATION parasympathetic nervous tone. The well known ‘fight or flight’ stress response produces hormones intended to be burnt off by action, but in a modern lifestyle such hormones may remain in the system

Hormones are not a form of fuel that is "burned off." There may be actual health benefits of saunas, but the above explanation is vague and smells of pseudoscience. BAW (talk) 13:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

“Pseudoscience is reserved to describe theories which are either untestable in practice or in principle, or which are maintained even when tests appear to have refuted them.” If you read the text and references you will find that tests on reduction of stress hormones have been successfully carried out with sauna use. Therefore it can hardly be pseudoscience. The use of the term in a prejorative manner would not comply with WP:NPOV unless you can cite WP:RS evidences to the contrary! ‘Burn up’ is a colloquial term for ‘metabollically utilise’ and probably better understood by encyclopaedia readers, but ‘knock yourself out’ if you want and suggest an expanded less vague description, readily understood by readers. By the way, the normal practice in Wiki is to place new comments last on the talk page not in earlier text, unless recent and ongoing! Jagra (talk) 06:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] clarification

"Loud conversation is not usual as the sauna is seen as a place of healing rather than socialising."

So which one is it? Is it mainly a social or healing place? a thing 08:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


Both.

- When you go to the sauna after a hard day at work, you go to relax on your own. You don't stay so long, maybe from half to one hour and then watch some telly and go to bed.

- If it's Saturday, you go to sauna earlier with your family and have a nice relaxing 1-2 hours.

- If you are going out, you go for a quickie i.e. half an hour, and have a few drinks after, before dressing (and putting makeup on if you're a woman).

- If you have a party, you go to the sauna for hours together. First you start a vigorous heating up companied with lots of speaking and laughing. Then you go outside to cool down: you have a quick swim amd sit down to have some beer and a wild chat. When you start to feel chilly, you go back to the sauna. Now, the talk normally calms down and you enjoy the heat companied with the occational conversation. Then you start the beating with the branch and throwing lots of water on kiuas. After this you run to the lake while screaming and laughing. Then you sit outside again and drink more beer. After going in for the third time, normally everybody is quiet and after a while they start to compete about "who lasts the longests" (also known as "let's see what you are made of"). Wild water throwing starts and there you sit like you were glued to the bench: red from your face, curled down so the heat doesn't feel so harsh... You can't leave the room first! The poor person that gives in before the others is made fun of for the rest of the evening. It is not unusual for the temperature to rise over 100C. At some point everyone is about to faint so you all agree to leave all at the same time. Then all of you run to the lake and feel gorgeous. Happy, relaxed and furfilled. You have cleaned your soul once again.


As we Finnish think about sauna: it is the place of being reborn.

Having sauna feels like you clean yourself inside out; your skin as well as your soul.

There is a song that goes: "Löylyä lissää, löylyä lissää, tämä ei tunnu missää" ("More heat, more heat, I can't feel it yet") and it is often referred in the sauna when you think it is not hot enough. There is also a saying that goes: "In sauna, it is not allowed to be cold" i.e. it is not enjoyable if it's less than ~70C.

So sauna is a place to relax but ALSO a place to socialize. You can do both at the same time.

--Aikapoika 20:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does anyone know the thermodynamics of the sauna?

Does anyone know the thermodynamics of the sauna?

I was talking with someone ( coincidentally in the sauna at the Gym ) and he was convinced that when water is poured on top of the hot rocks that the net effect on the temperature of the room is cooling.

I studied a little Thermodynamics in my time and doubted that idea. We discussed something to the extent of The water hits the rocks and is immediately boiled and turned to steam which rises in the room. The steam is cooled by the surrounding air. Conversely this means that the air is heated.

His argument was something that the water coming off of the rocks was less than boiling temperature and is actually less than the temperature of the room which in some cases could be 190 degrees.

He also pointed out that dry heat feels much cooler than wet heat.

He felt that the steam actually cooled the room but temerarily felt hotter because of the increase in humidity.

What is the temperature of the rocks in a sauna?

I doubt this. So unless someone can tell me differently here is the thermodynamics as I understand it:

1) Any temp water is poured on hot rocks. 2) The heat from the hot rocks transfers to the water and boils it. Steam is released and the temp of the steam should be about 212 degrees. 3) The steam rises and mixes with the air in the rest of the sauna the steam cools ( conversely the air heats )

Net effect is a signifigantly hotter sauna. In theory this could be calculated by taking the initial temperature of the room, the volume of the room, the amount of water poured over the rocks ( must be less than the amount to cause water to drip out of the heating system ). However I am not sure of the formula to calculate that.

--Tommac2

Regardless of the effect of pouring water on the rocks on the true air temperature inside the sauna, the effect on the apparent air temperature (that temperature felt by the users) will be to raise it.

The body will work harder to cool itself at a given temperature in a more humid environment. Thus, as the water is vaporized and the humidity rises, the sauna "feels" much hotter regardless of whether it is heated or cooled a few degrees by the addition of the hot water vapor.

Eljefe3126 20:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)eljefe3126

If you throw alot of water on the rocks the temerature sinks but if you throw little at a time it will raise very quickly. --DerMeister 16:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. During and after löyly sessions in our main cabine (in our saunacompany), when lots of water or even crushed ice is poured over the rocks, a fall of several degrees can be observed on the control panel. Sander1453--81.205.148.151 09:18, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Inventor of the Steam bath, and it's Approximate Length

"Mel Freisen, who now resides in Swift Current, Saskatchewan, Canada. Most of his childhood was spent moving from city to city, because of his father's job. The ideal steam bath was rumored to be around 40 minutes in length. However, this has not been tested."

What is this supposed to mean?

BKfi, 2 November 2006

[edit] Etymology

Doesn't sauna come from savuna/*sawna, which meant in/on/at smoke? --85.156.135.244 17:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a folk etymology. The word originates from proto-Finnish (*sawńa). Now, the palatalized *-ńa should not be an essive case indicator, like modern Finnish -na is. Also, the modern essive has a meaning that is rather difficult: "as smoke". Furthermore, the probable original meaning ("a pit dug into snow") has little to do with "smoke". It's true that *saw- could be the proto-Finnish root for "smoke", and if *-ńa is a locative case, then the "smoke" etymology could work. --Vuo 17:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, sauna comes from early Proto-Finnic *sakńa, the -k- can be seen in Karelian dialectal soakna as well as South Estonian sann (with -nn- < *-kn-). This word has no etymological connection to savu 'smoke'. --AAikio 09:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pouring water on hot stones

I´m not a native speaker but as far as I remember this procedure is called infusion. If I´m right this should be incorporated into the article. 84.173.202.53 17:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on Health benefits

This section is devoid of any decent sourcing...Some of the claims seem ridiculous. "30% of body wastes are passed through the skin"?! This is very likely off by at least a factor of ten. In short, this unsourced and seemingly biased section (was it written by a sauna manufacturer?) is litter with {{fact}} tags and should be essentially eliminated unless reliable sources are presented to verify the claims. I'll give it a couple of days before I start rewriting & deleting... — Scientizzle 01:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. I came here after seeing the refdesk discussion. I don't even think we need to give it the usual couple of days; it's pretty obvious that these claims do not reflect medical consensus. It's a nice courtesy, though. --Allen 02:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Heh... this article even advertises that saunas produce hyperthermia, which according to that article is "a serious medical emergency". --Allen 02:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Umm, I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but hyperthermia just means potentially-fatal overheating. And that is only when used for extreme periods of time. It isn't an even slightly dubious claim, consider the ease with which the opposite condition (hypothermia) occurs. If you want I'll include a reference to a news article I recently read (if I can remember where to look) about a woman who fainted in the sauna of her health club and escaped with only second-degree burns; the hospital said she was lucky to be alive. VanTucky 02:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Sorry... I do believe that a sauna can produce hyperthermia, and also that (as the hyperthermia article also says), hyperthermia can in some cases be beneficial. I wrote the above comment because I found it ironic that the "health benefits" section of this article treats the induction of hyperthermia as an unqualifiedly good thing, when usually it isn't. But I shouldn't have tried to poke fun; if you wrote the text or are sympathetic to that viewpoint, I can understand why you might feel insulted by me, and I apologize. As this is an encyclopedia, I should have been more dispassionate. --Allen 03:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
As, perhaps, I should be as well...VanTucky 20:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This section saw no improvement so I have made the entire thing into a hidden comment. It's ridiculous to have a "health benefits" section that reads like a sauna brochure that is littered with {{fact}} tags due to its almost complete lack of citations...it's potentially dangerous, too. — Scientizzle 15:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

There are also some health risks which can be linked with sauna but they're common with all very hot places or places with hot equipment. I've heard some horrific stories about people who have had a fit in a sauna and they've been cooked to death. Some may slip with very serious consequences like hitting their head and never getting out alive - some have been fallen against the sauna stove and have got very serious burns. When you're in sauna you should have something to drink nearby because sauna can cause serious dehydration. On the other hand, excessive use of alcohol may cause you to pass out which can be lethal. Cases like this are rare but may happen. So, not everything that happens in sauna is necessary healthy. (unsigned!)

Hi in the near future I intend to add a new section to the Article that I am working on now, called Therapeutic Sauna, as the use of sauna for treatment is becoming more widely accepted. I am aware of many medical science references that I will cite, that should silence the critics and enable the flags to be removed. Anyone any objections or comments? Jagra 07:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
More sources, especially to back up the scientific claims, would be great. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Have today added therapuetic sauna, some may think sex comes before therapy! have included around 100 references. for some reason the internal links are not working, will correct later Jagra 23:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Can you please change it so that it is clear which reference is supporting which claim, instead of just placing all the references at the end of the paragraph. Currently it seems like many of the references in the article are irrelevant to the topic. I cannot delete these references without knowing what claims they are supporting. I also cannot evaluate the validity of the health benefits of saunass without knowing what evidence there is to support whatJamesStewart7 (talk) 01:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC).
See comments belowJagra (talk) 05:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Formating

I would request that someone have a look at the formating of this page - there are sections that are over a page long without paragraphs, breaks, or anything to help guide the eye. Reading it is near impossible in my current state.

I would format it myself, but I'm currently as drunk as a skunk, arguing over the benifits of a sauna. My appologies. 24.67.68.118 09:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok it's been a while since I've studied some of these things but some of these claims look rather dodgy.

"Therapeutic sauna adaptation improves neuroendocrine and immune function with increases in cortisol, DHEAS, and lower cytokines" Cortisol has a negative effect on immune system functioning so there is no way an increase in cortisol represents better immune functioning. Also what does "improved neuroendocrine function" mean? I can't think of an appropriate way to decide if neuroendocrine functioning has improved. Looking at the way the term was used in the article, it seems like an increase in a certain neurotransmitter/hormone is supposed to signal improved function but these changes aren't necessarily positive ones.

"Women show higher neuroendocrine response than men." Similarly problematic. Which hormones/neurotranismmiter? What changes? Saying that women show a higher neuroendocrine response is like saying women have more hormones. Even if it is true, it is completely uninformative. These sentences have been removed from the article for these reasons.

"Indicated in reducing symptoms in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome[citation needed], and rheumatoid arthritis, and indicated for anorexia nervosa [citation needed]." Fact tags have been added because the evidence I can see is simply insufficient to support these claims. The only anorexia nervosa evidence I can see is a case study of a couple of cases. Fairly worthless in scientific terms.

"Sauna has also been found to reduce sympathetic activity, stress hormones adrenalin and noradrenalin and to trigger a well defined neuro-endocrine reaction which includes raising the hormones found low in CFS and some other chronic conditions (ACTH, cortisol and beta endorphin), interestingly cortisol remained elevated after other hormones had returned to prior levels." Which conditions? How strong a marker are these hormone levels of said conditions? If these hormones do not strongly indicate with both high sensitivity and specificity these conditions then the comment shouldn't be included. It's akin to me saying that most people who have died have drank water at some time... A true but highly misleading statement. For a well defined neuro-endocrine response, the hormonal changes seem pretty contradictory. Cortisol and andrenalin are both hormones in the HPA axis. A decrease in adrenalin should really be met with a decrease in cortisol and acth, at least eventually (there are feedback loops) so I can think of a few possibilities; saunas have different effects on different people (relaxing vs invigorating - so not well defined at allthat result in different stress responses) or these hormone results come from different research measured at different times or these hormones were measured at one point where this profile exists, instead of over an extended duration or someone has misinterpreted the research or someone stuffed up the research or my biology is just wrong. This comment "interestingly cortisol remained elevated after other hormones had returned to prior levels" leads me towards "someone misinterpreted the data". Cortisol is almost always elevated for some time after adrenalin, noradrenalin etc return to normal so it's not interesting at all. This comment also suggests that the data was taken over an extended period and whoever wrote this just took a snapshot.

Even the last point (my biology is wrong) is problematic as this is an encyclopedia article. Currently non-biologists probably cannot understand this section which is why I think many dubious claims have remained in here.

"It has shown that regular saunas combined with exercise therapy can efficiently clear organic chemicals, solvents, drugs, pharmaceuticals even PCBs and heavy metals from the body" I'm not entirely sure which reference this claim is based on but this one seems relevant "Components of practical clinical detox programs--sauna as a therapeutic tool." It's an article from the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine and the article does not appear to be original research. Given the lack of credentials or supporting research, this article cannot be used as support for these claims.

"A sauna followed by a cold shower has been shown to reduce pain in rheumatoid arthritis where pain is mediated by sensitised c-fibre sympathetics, pain in other chronic conditions such as CFS and fibromyalgia may be similar." This seems like the supporting article "Effect of exposure to sauna heat on neuropathic and rheumatoid pain." The article is an examination of how pain is mediated. It appears that some patients actually reported excacerbation of their symptoms during the sauna. Furthermore, the study lacks the appropriate controls to infer that sauna use reduces pain (not surprising as this was not their aim).

"It also stimulated the production of hormones such as testosterone, the hormone that regulates sexual drive and potency in men, and boosted the women's production of oestrogen, a hormone regulating fertility and involved in other medical conditions" This is somewhat of a gross oversimplification of the roles of testoerone and oestrogen. It may be fair to say that oestrogen is involved in the ovulatory cycle or that testosterone is involved in libido but it is not fair to say an increase in oestrogen or testosterone resulting from sauna use will result in a corresponding increase in libido or fertility as is implied here. For example, administering oestrogen to women, as in the case of the combined oral contraceptive pill may even reduce fertility through negative feedback loops. As such the implications in the article have been removed.

"They found this treatment alone considerably improved many chronic conditions." Removed as it is far too broad and it is highly unlikely that the study accurately assessed "many chronic conditions". Please specify the conditions before reinclusion (and move the reference so I can check it).

"The therapeutic sauna with hot cycle followed by a cold cycle brings the benefits of both and in fact induces the body to switch from sympathetic to parasympathetic mode." The body doesn't have parasympathetic and sympathetic modes. There are parasympathetic and sympathetic systems which interact and are almost always interactive. Removed due to innaccuracy.

"This effect helps break down one of the nastier aspects of chronic illness; imbalance of blood supply due to vasoconstriction." Also removed. There is just no way that all chronic illnesses share this one feature.

"It has been shown with drugs such as caffeine, that delayed metabolic clearance was offset by a sizeable elimination in sweat by sauna. Sweat tests have shown pharmaceutical drugs are eliminated in sweat, narcotics, alkaloids and barbiturates are eliminated in sweat, and elimination increased with heat. Sweat analysis is also used for diagnosis of some disease, toxic metal excretion in sweat is used in diagnosis of chronic disease the result of contamination, and sweating used to eliminate toxic metals." If this is the source "Drug residues store in the body following cessation of use: Impacts on neuroendocrine balance and behavior – Use of the Hubbard sauna regimen to remove toxins and restore health" I'm just going to point out that it was published in Med hypotheses and doesn't contain any actual research. If this is the source "The significance of drug analysis of sweat in respect to rapid screening for drug abuse", I'm going to point out that it is fallicious to assume that just because drug residue appears in sweat, that you can increase drug clearance by sweating more.JamesStewart7 (talk) 02:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I just readded fact tags that were removed. I am inclined to assume there is no reference unless I can see a clear reference for it as some of the information that was in this paragraph was a little questionable (see directly above). It is so hard to tell though as there is 40 possible references that could correspond to that citation. So if anyone notices that a particular citation corresponds to a particular statement please move it. JamesStewart7 (talk) 14:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that a lot of the comments and criticisms made above are in fact your own point of view and/or origonal research and contrary to WP:NPOV and WP:OR as no references have been given for your assertations why should we beleive you when you provide no referencing, and admit poor memory, as against the Article text quoting directly from studies by others?

With regard to the request for inline citing this is not a hard requirement of Wikipedia, in fact several options are given, viz; Referencing This Says requires only “For journal articles, include volume number, issue number and page numbers”

“If you're relying on text that is not in the abstract, you might still want to link by typing (for example) abstract at PMID 15153440, which Wikipedia will display as: abstract at PMID 12345. “ [1]

‘Wikipedia policy WP:V states that if an editor requests that a particular statement be sourced, that request should be fulfilled. In this case, it may be advisable to add an in-line citation if this would prevent future confusion. However, if the statement is easily found in the principal references already given in the article, a citation may instead be provided on the article's associated talk page.” here

I choose to follow this guideline, and give the references for each of the queries in the Article here on the talk page. I will use the PMID number as Article reference numbers can change over time. These are all in the Article citing or have been added. The In-line citation requests and banner are now removed. In regard to; Appetite loss, the following numbers are relevant. PMID 16046381 PMID 14610268 PMID 9383124 Anorexia, PMID 11300546 PMID 15185834 PMID 15001010 CFS, PMID 17561703 PMID 11703165 PMID 11121511 PMID 17045758 PMID 15992574 PMID 9742612, PMID 1436218 PMID 10025074 PMID 11268418 PMID 17958903 Vasoconstriction, PMID 15914953 PMID 14610268 Drug and chemical toxin clearance; heavy metals and chemicals PMID 17405694, PMID 1866932, drugs and pharmaceuticals PMID 17045758, solvents PMID 9553837, organic chemicals, PMID 1817511, PCB PMID 2514627, pesticide exposure PMID 17590542 drugs are eliminated in sweat PMID 8757411, narcotics alkaloids and barbiturates are eliminated in sweat PMID 433459 and elimination increased with heat. PMID 10572984 sweat analysis is also used for diagnostic purposes of disease PMID 8210068 toxic metal excretion in sweat is used in diagnosis of chronic disease the result of contamination PMID 1427342 PMID 1882227 sweating used to eliminate toxic metals PMID 4711652, PMID 3238426, PMID 13027599 Neuro-endocrine and the immune systems PMID 10735978 women show higher neuroendocrine response PMID 8917906

Of course other references cited in the Article are also relevant to these conditions apart from the direct studies, for instance in CFS, vasoconstriction, temperature sensitivity, cortisol, sympathetic nervous tone, prostaglandins, cytokine profiles etc are also relevant to the findings in these conditions. If one was to attempt to list every possible reference against every listed condition then we would have multiple citings for the same references. Apart from the complexity involved and the length of increase to the Article, such in line references would interrupt the flow of the text, therefore as end of paragraph citing is a legitimate option, and as this has already been chosen, it can remain. However if someone wants to undertake that task they can.

“The verifiability criteria require that such statements be sourced so that in principle anyone can verify them. However, in many articles it is cumbersome to provide an in-line reference for every statement. In addition, such dense referencing can obscure the logical interdependence of statements. “ “These inline citations are often inserted either after the first sentence of a paragraph or after the last sentence of the paragraph; a single convention should be chosen for each article.” It has been. hereJagra (talk) 03:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brain damage?

How does one avoid getting hyperthermia and brain damage? Yeah, you sweat but the evaporation is countered by the fact that you're immersed in a 160 degree plus environment. -Rolypolyman 13:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

By not spending much time in the sauna. The extreme heat is a shock, not something you want to spend hours and hours in. The initial symptom of hyperthermia - nausea - deters you from spending too much time in the sauna. People usually cool off with cold showers and even going outside after visiting the sauna room. You can get hyperthermia easily, compared to sauna, from running on a hot day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vuo (talk • contribs) 08:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Read the Therapeutic sauna proceedure section in the Article Jagra 06:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Safe use

Someone has since, irresponsibly in my view, removed the Therapeutic sauna proceedure from the Article? In veiw of a number of querries now like the one above concerning safe use of sauna's the proceedure can be accessed for now here Safe-use

I think something similar (if not so prescriptive) needs to be included back in the Article. Can I get comments and hopefully a consensus for this. Jagra (talk) 05:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Dangers, the text just added is not supported by a reliable source citation, whilst in the right spirit, wikipedia does not accept opinion and all statements must be supported by citations WP:RS so please add such citations or text will be removed.
The same applies to text just added to Benefits, these will also be removed unless you add additional citations for the statements or provide them here for verification if relying upon an existing citation already referenced in that section. Jagra (talk) 23:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC) Combined text added references. Jagra (talk) 04:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)