Talk:Satanism/archive4

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Neutrality, Disambiguation, LaVeyan Satanism

The last person to screw with this page both Deleted the criticism section AND screwed up the disambiguation page.Consensus has so far said that it is best just to leave it as a disambiguation page and deal with the individual forms of Satanism in separate articles in order to keep things neutral. Thats why I attempted to revert things back to how they were, but as it is I'm not sure HOW and I'll have to rewrite my criticsm section for LaVeyan Satanism....As a note I AM a LaVeyan Satanist and am trying to improve the individual article on LaVeyan Satanism with the criticism section in an attempt for neutrality which the last user to revert (not you Zoe but the other guy) has utterly ruined. WerewolfSatanist 22:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase what I said (But leave my intial reaction): This is kind of a work in progress. No its not perfect yet, but why just revert things to the way they were? Why not instead create a general page for Satanism first before jumping back into a rather biased account of Satanism? WerewolfSatanist 22:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 9

I was wondering if there was some kind of agreement that allowed the last revert, and if not perhaps we need to have some kind of help from a wiki mediator.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 23:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a question. Since the majority of editors agreed to work on this project in the aim of how it was before the current revert is there any way to protect their work and efforts?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 00:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:DR Dispute Resolution for you Rev. It might help. Until that is sorted out I'll add my Criticisms once again.WerewolfSatanist 00:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-03_SatanismRev. Michael S. Margolin 01:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Major edit

I agree with the criticisms that "Satanism" should be a much broader article than LaVeyan Satanism. So I replaced the original text with text from the Satan article. The original text, I moved to the "LaVeyan Satanism" page. Hope this is fair. Please note that LaVey and the Church of Satan are still mentioned prominently on this page.


=---------

Why is there a "church of satan" banner on the page ???

ENOUGH WITH THEM TRYING TO MONOPOLIZE SATANISM!!! REMOVE IT!!!! --veltis-

It doesn't belong on this page, true, but there are better arguments than propaganda of anti-Christians. Darkahn 08:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, this isn't the way to do it. Look at Whatlinkshere. This article is old. Aran|heru|nar 07:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Current opinion?

Sorry about being absent for a while, everybody. I've been too busy working on the article lists to actually notice what's been happening to the articles during that time. I feel extremely stupid about that, by the way. Anyway, with perhaps some reservations about the paragraph on Satanic crimes, which I acknowledge may well not belong here, the article looks pretty good to me, other than maybe lacking sources. I think that it's basically a decent job of covering the subject. Other opinions? Badbilltucker 20:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Satanic crimes should be there for it is an excellent example of how the Christian religion uses the word Satanism to manipulate the masses to persecute non Christians. And thank you for all your help.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 20:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I left the banner there because I thought it had more than one Satanic group on it. By all means, feel free to change whatever. The symbol looks cool--apologies if it is too LaVey specific, maybe somebody would prefer a different one?

The Levi Baphomet with other Satanic groups and people added to the banner would round it out. As is the banner only reflects CoS and the LaVey Legacy. Though on this one I'm not complaining, just trying to help. And BadBillTucker feel free to try and get an SoS article made if you still want to. More than happy to help with any info you need.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 18:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


On Satanic crimes, wasn't there a French Satanic child-molesting ring that got charged a year or so ago? As I recall, there were dozens of them. A big part of the scandal was how the high-ranking townspeople had hushed it up. (Some of them were in the cult.) Wish I could remember where this was... ====

They were not a Satanic group. Just poor French community exploiting their kids to gain alcohol, cigerettes and in some cases food.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 18:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Pardon the pun, but where in the hell is this article getting at hundreds of people being convicted for SRA? As I recall, the FBI released a report stating there was not a single proven case of SRA in the USA. While obviously certain cases were 'interpreted' by the media as SRA, they were certainly not in the number of hundreds. Care to put up some sources? Lastly, I prefered the disambiguation page. I also fail to see the logic behind the statements that LaVey was a spokesman for Satanism as a whole, as this article suggests, or that his works are somehow viewed by the devil-worshippers as controversial. Aside from a very few cults, most of them don't pay any attention to LaVey whatsoever. LaVey did not believe in forms of Satanism. Devil-worshippers to him were worse than the Christians. Darkahn 08:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

There was a mental hospital I believe in New York ran by Christians that got busted for implanting false memories that was about 8-9 years ago. After that bust the whole SRA push died. I'm not gonna attempt to write history for I'm not a historian, I'm sure if anyone is interested in the facts they can easily be dug up on the web. One more note on this subject, Thelema Lodge in Berkley California was raided durring this witch hunt along with a few other O.T.O. camps around the bay area which resulted in false chrages, police brutality and a Law Suit in which the O.T.O. and private parties involved won not only a finacial settlement but all charges were droped. Again showing how the Christian religion uses the word Satanism to scare the lemmings into violating the rights of non Christians.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 18:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Whose idea was the "Ceremonial Bible Burning" link? I've never encountered anyone that does that. Sounds like an exposingsatanism.org kinda thing. WerewolfSatanist 02:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Phunting 01:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)== Revert war goes on ==

Is there anyway to put an end to the church of Satan zealots from reverting the Satanism article?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 19:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The article can be semiprotected, but that requires administrative intervention and generally someone coming close to violating the three-revert rule. Badbilltucker 22:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Any posibility of you getting that rock rolling Bill? And can any of us revert it back to the non bias version without looking like vandals?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 23:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Not the best person to do the reverting myself, based on my limited knowledge of the subject, and I don't want to mistakenly include any of the wrong info. One could revert the vandalism, and then file a request for semi-protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection, requesting either semi-protection or full protection. Beyond that, the Wikipedia:Resolving disputes rules come into play. For this to work, we have to engage in an attempt to resolve the dispute short of official involvement. This could involve seeking an advocate. I have contacted one and hope to be hearing from GuyIncognito shortly. Badbilltucker 23:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Bill I'm posting this url so you and everyone else involved can receive their compliment for working together to try and make a nonbiased Satanism article and two, the mediater might be a good person to tap. I hate to cuz I don't wanna bug him, I was awfully thankful for his help the last revert I just hate to ask him again.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-01-03_Satanism Rev. Michael S. Margolin 00:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest, I detested that so-called "unbiased" version of the article. It was pure bollocks. Hundreds of SRA convictions? Please. I am of the belief that a disambiguation page is still the best way to do it and keep it "neutral." And, with all due respect, there have been more vandalizations by both kids and Theistic "satanists", who put more effort staking the claim of them being "true satanists" rather than editting their own article, than their have been by CoS-affiliated individuals -- so far, I only know of one here.Darkahn 06:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem still remains that the church of Satan's definition of Satanism is not the predominate one, and the article as you like it, makes it look like it is. Thus a misrepresentation of the facts. Yes the Church of Satan I will admit is the most known, but their definition of Satanism is the least known, least used in any context, therefore should not dominate the article as it does in the way you want the article. As for any of the editors that agreed to make this a non biased article claiming "True Satanism", SHOW ME, that whole True Satanism is from CoS and why they and you want to dominate the definition of Satanism to furthermore make the lame ass claim as being the one the true, the just as the stuck in the mire of trying to dominate reality as all the other old world religions.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 07:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

You know I never actually saw where it said "SRA convictions." Really guys. Whats the big deal? Why is it that people can't worry about improving the articles rather than arguing over semantics? So separate everything and have an unbiased page to give a general overview. If you don't like it than IMPROVE it, don't replace it. Everybody is actually working to improve these articles. If the "SRA convictions" bothers you cause it is not factual, then take it out. Cause you're right. Quote FBI reports. But don't replace and articles just becuase you don't like them. 64.5.145.74 14:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I wrote this tonight. I'm not saying this is what should be posted. I'm merely offering it as a possible rough draft we can all be happy to work with and from. So save any desire to chew me a new asshole, I have enough new assholes. And please remember I'm not a technical writer I'm a fucking poet god damn it. The only technical writing I ever did was the SoS manifesto but even that to me was chess and poetry. OK enough disclaimer here is what I offer.

Satanism has a very broad and varied definition. Most commonly used in the context of devil worshiper. Wheather it's used in the context of self proclamation or as an accusation to justify persecution by various religions around the world that have an antithesis to their belief. Though predominant in dualism such as Christianity it can also be found in monotheism such as Judaism and Islam as well as indigenous religions around the world. As far as Satanism as an organized religion, and used in the context of self proclamation, the most popularly and widely known groups are the Church of Satan founded by Anton Zandor LaVey in San Fransisco California in 1967. They also have their own definition of Satanism which is basically Atheism and is based on their Satanic bible. The next two most popularly known groups in Satanism are the Ordo Templi Orientis (Aleister Crowley )and the Temple of Set (Michael and Lilith Aquino), but these two groups fall under Satanism in the context of an accusation, for neither group proclaims they are Satanists but other religions accuse them of being Satanists. The third most widely known group in Satanism proclaims they are Satanists, they are the Order of the nine angles, ONA. Like the Church of Satan they have their own definition of Satanism which is the antithesis of Christianity.

This space reserved for anyone that feels their group is more known or has more members than the Sinagogue of Satan which boasts well over 4,000 world wide.

Unlike the aforementioned groups is the Sinagogue of Satan. Again they have their own definition of Satanism which is nihilist in nature and based on its self canceling philosophy. SoS based their religion on freedom of religion as an act to undermine all religions including itself. Therefore not all of its members are Satanists and besides not accepting donations or charging for membership explains it's growth world wide and members in almost every religion including self proclaimed Satanists of various definitions.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 04:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Technically, it is not a disambiguation page unless it reads like this:

Satanism can refer to:

... etc.

Tunnels of Set 04:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

See, even Set points out the possibilities are endless! Thank you Set.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 05:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

As someone new to the veritable war that seems to be raging here, I'll give my view. Personally I feel a proper disambiguation page would be the most sensible thing to do, ensuring that nobodies definition is regarded as the 'true' definition. Quite what are the objections to this? Regarding the above statement I think that to just state the CoS is "basically Atheism and is based on their Satanic bible" and to mention nothing about doctrinal beliefs of OTO and ToS but then to wax lyrical over SoS does seem rather biased towards the latter. Personally I've never heard of SoS (though I hardly claim authority on the subject), I'm skeptical therefore that it should have such high seeming priority. Oh and it should be ‘whether’ in the second line, not ‘weather’.

Regardless, I think the article as it stands at the moment is significantly worse than it was when I last looked.Phunting 01:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You missed worshiping, worshipping. Also you overlooked that space open for more prominate groups let alone the disclamer stating rough draft. Also as you can see, if you'd add to my rough draft using your critisms it would make a great article. Expand on CoS, Expand on O.T.O., T.o.S., O.N.A., and leave out Sinagogue of Satan, at the same time, to do so would be editing history to suit your personal bias.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 05:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC) P.S. I left out ignorance to be polite.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 05:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

"You missed worshiping, worshipping." Not sure what you're referring to here. I mispspelled worshipping besides using the wrong weather.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 15:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

"Also you overlooked that space open for more prominate groups let alone the disclamer stating rough draft." Not at all. I appreciate you did leave that element. I also understand that it was a draft, which is why I commented on what elements I felt needed re-drafting! I don't advocate leaving out SoS at all, I just stated as it stands the article seems inappropriatly weighed towards it. I also assure you I have no personal bias here, or desire to edit history as you put it. I am not a CoS member, or a member of any other such organization for that matter. I just have an interest in the subject and would like Wikipedia to have as good an article on it as it can.

"I left out ignorance to be polite."- Not sure what you mean by this either?... Phunting 13:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC) "Personally I've never heard of SoS (though I hardly claim authority on the subject)"Rev. Michael S. Margolin 15:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ignorance? Quite possibly. However I have never seen the organization referenced in a book, magazine, article, program, news story or website aside from wikipedia. If you could provide a reference from an independant source (ie not a website created by the organization or something editable like wikipedia) I would of course take it back. Phunting 17:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Brown, Seth (2004). Think You're the Only One? Oddball Groups Where Outsiders Fit In, pp. 99-100. Barnes and Noble Books. ISBN 0760757089Rev. Michael S. Margolin 18:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Footage of Michael Margolin on Out & About with Roger Martin Episode #157 Angels Among Us / Pagan Day Festival.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 19:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

http://www.leagueofsatanists.com/revmikeinterview.htmlRev. Michael S. Margolin 19:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The Mad Poet, CD http://www.theophanyrecords.com/madpoet/Rev. Michael S. Margolin 19:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Anton LaVey

The reason I edited the Anton LaVey paragraph was 1 the complaint here on the talk page of using the term spokesperson. He was a spokesperson for his own brand of Satanism but not all Satanism. But he was a Satanist and the most prominately and widely known one. I hope you guys like this small edit if not I understand again I was just trying to help.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 05:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems good to me, though I think we could just put it in the past tense with was. Don't see why we need is, and was. Tunnels of Set 06:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

As we both know I'm a poet not a technical writer, and thank you for your feed back. I used "is and was" as an alusion to he passed. My way of respectfulling alluding to his departure from this plain of existance much like Robert Anton Wilson who was currently released from the pain of Polio and not to brag but another noteable I befreinded but that was over 20 years ago and before his reocurent affliction. I watched his "Maybe Logic" a couple months ago, (Great a must see for everyone)as usual it was great but I did not know about his new bout with polio and was to say the least messed up for a few days from seeing him that way. I'm just glad he isn't in pain anymore and for the record Rob is my favorite Buddhist.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 07:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Satanism project group proposal

Instead of the on going revert war can we form a project group to work out and create a Satanism article? Also if we can do this is there any way we can get protection for the artical while it's being worked on? I feel if we work together instead of argue over symantics and revert war we could make a good non biased article especially if the group is made up from several different Satanic groups including CoS.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 19:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that anyone who does not engage in the discussion can and should be reverted until they do. Tunnels of Set 20:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed and thank you for your help.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 23:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Besides me, anyone else getting tired of this revert war?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 15:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

We could report this as vandalism seeing as most of the reverts back to the older article see no discussion. Also, I find the idea of "recruiting on their own message boards" amusing when the only people editing this article seem to come from no common message board. I only went onto the Rev's website to talk after I began editing this article. Long after.

On another note....THERE IS A TALK PAGE. State your complaints. Thats the POINT Of a talk page. To discuss and logically portray your point. There is also a LHP Work Group now, meant to help bring together people and suggest new ideas for articles. Talk and discuss there. Mediation has already suggested the generalized form of the article. Leave it at that. WerewolfSatanist 00:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

WerewolfSatanist, I'm glad that you are amused by the "recruiting on their own message boards" comment. What amuses me is that even though the posts on the message board in question make it quite clear that there is a uniformed effort to "takeover" this article that you would insist that this isn't the case.
Recruiting? no we are not like you, yes I have been giving the play by play on the Sinagogue of Satan message board ( it's more entertainment than anything else) but show me where I asked for help in this little war of ours on my message board. Telling people to do their wills is not comanding or even manipulating them is it? Told ya we are not like you. And like it or not some Sinagogue of Satan members such as myself call themselves Satanist and CoS don't get my little red card till they give me a Million dollars tax free.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:43, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


If it is the majority consensus of people who edit this article that is the barometer for what happens here, then perhaps I should do the same thing and we can add 40 or 50 new editors to this project who disagree with your definition of "Satanism". Is that the direction this article needs to take in order to get a factual and stable entry here? Let me know.
Not to come off as being insulting here, but if the Church of Satan religion is a new religion, how come you want to resort to the same tactics as old world religions?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
My main point of contention with this current entry is that there is no basis to include subculture Satanism as the main staple for the Satanism entry, other than to serve the purposes of those who are editing the article here. I am NOT pro-CoS in any way; however I would very much like to see the term properly represented. Absinthe (Talk) 01:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Then include subculture Satanism, to do that you do not have to revert the article to the aformetioned biased version. But you will have to get creative and do something besides critique.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
By reverting, you are essentially creating a duplicate article of LaVeyan Satanism. Please stop. Tunnels of Set 01:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
What she said and Set if you're not a girl I'm mega sorry Bro!Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
They LaVeyan Satanism article should be deleted then, as it is a redundant article for Satanism (I don't know who created it). Stop what? Stop letting a small handful of people hi-jack a Wikipedia entry? Not a chance. The current article is ambiguous, doesn't tell the reader what Satanism is whatsoever, other than to say what it isn't, and provides nothing of value to Wikipedia readers. At the very least the former article made clear what Satanism was and offered the reader information on the subject. Absinthe (Talk) 01:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
No it should not be deleted. It should be there for people to go to from the Satanism article to learn more about him and the CoS. Is that too simple or what?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Then discuss what you think is missing and collaborate on adding it. Reverting to an old version of the article is not a way forward. It will not achieve what you want. Tunnels of Set 01:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
That sounds great in theory Tunnel, the only problem is that the old article was fine but it just had to be reverted incessantly because it was a "Biased Church of Satan definition" and rather than say what the PROBLEM with the old article was, specifically; those who had a problem with it merely created an ambiguous page that linked to Theistic Satanism thus allowing the editors here to link to their own website. So I would like to know what the issue with the correct (former) version of the Satanism article is.
When you say correct, don't you really mean, the one, the true? And you're not biased?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Even the mediation of 1-3-07 couldn't cite a specific issue with the article other than to say it was continuously being reverted (I wonder why) and they didn't like the definition. So I'm all ears, let's here what the problem with the old definition is, and why it's absolutely necessary to have a painfully ambiguous page for a main Wikipedia article. From there, I’m completely open to create an informative and neutral page to clearly communicate to the Wikipedia readers what Satanism is. Absinthe (Talk) 02:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Easy, the old version defines Satanism as the religion created by Anton LaVey. That is false. Satanism as it is most commonly known was created by the Catholic Church. They even wrote masive works as to what Satanists do and how they worship. Need I really cite the masses of Catholic and other denominations propaganda that were and are the birth words of the monsters they created and we so strongly fight to distance ourselves from, even to the point of attemping to manipulate an online encyclopedia.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


Michael, first of all, it isn't necessary to reply to each and every post with a simple-minded one sentence response.

Simple-minded? Resorting to insults already?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 04:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You can just as easily formulate one large thought with multiple points that you wish to retort to.

I'm a Satanist, I don't live by your rules!Rev. Michael S. Margolin 04:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Secondly, please for the love of god learn basic elementary school punctuation and grammar, and don't forget your spellchecker; you are just making yourself look silly, and I for one feel embarrassed for you.

No, my grammer may suck but I'll always be a better poet than you. O I left out and Chess player like the game your losing to me nowRev. Michael S. Margolin 04:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Now on to the larger point. Subculture Satanism (Theistic Satanism, Setianism, Devil worship, Luciferianism, etc, etc, etc.) is a contemporary byproduct of Satanism and not the other way around. These masses of “Catholic and other denominations propaganda” (improper punctuation intentionally used) are nothing more than archaic hate-mongering establishments that tried to conjure false propaganda to support their various causes. In modern times the followers and protagonists of these various movements are largely used as a response to modern day religion and as a vehicle with which to rebel. Modern Satanism (aka LaVeyan Satanism) is the only mainstream and modern movement to have a solid, traceable foundation of a religion/philosophy that we can point to and say, “yes, this is Satanism as it is known to the 20th and 21st century.” And as inconvenient as it might be for you, this is the best and most accurate way we can describe Satanism from an encyclopedic point of view.

Now, I would have no problem adding a section about Subculture Satanism to the proper version of the article, however I doubt you (or your friends) would allow the article to exist long enough for anyone to do that. You see the only thing you seem interested in, is making sure that the Modern (read: LaVeyan) version of the definition for “Satanism” is not the definition here, and that your outdated, obscure, and inconsistent definition of Satanism is. Absinthe (Talk) 03:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You are so poor at attempting to manipulate reality you expose your guilt.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyone else, interested in actually discussing the article, want to take a stab at this? Absinthe (Talk) 04:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

CheckmateRev. Michael S. Margolin 04:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Get Gilmore in here, he knows who I am, get him in here, and I so pray he is better than you, if not I'll tear up this little red card. Out of sheer shame! I'll even post the pieces for the whole world to see.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 04:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

"Get Gilmore in here, he knows who I am, get him in here, and I so pray he is better than you, if not I'll tear up this little red card. Out of sheer shame! I'll even post the pieces for the whole world to see."

So much for maturity, being "neutral" and simply wanting to give unbiased articles to Satanists and nuts alike.Darkahn 17:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Maturity has nothing to do with neutrality and you still suck so bad at trying to manipulate reality you resort to name calling, you are not the person to judge maturity little boy. "Satanists and nuts alike."Darkahn 17:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)Rev. Michael S. Margolin 04:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Next step

If this article is going to be the jumping off point, and not going to be reduced to a simple redirect page, then I'd suggest going the route of a one or two paragraph summary of each of the subarticles, with the {{main|subarticle}} tag at the top of each section, like this:

LaVeyan Satanism

Main article: LaVeyan Satanism

blah blah blah .. simplistic summary .. blah blah blah

Theistic Satanism

Main article: Theistic Satanism

blah blah .. simplistic summary .. blah blah blah

etc. I suggest ordering in terms of historic order (date of founding of first group espousing type) or, if there is disagreement about that, alphabetic... Tunnels of Set 05:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

1871Rev. Michael S. Margolin 05:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


Sometimes it is better to let sleepping dogs lay. Especially when it has three heads compared to your one.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 05:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


Tunnels, I like the fair minded place that you are coming from. Let me throw this out there as food for thought and get some feedback. Modern Satanism is a mainstream subculture. What I mean by this, is that when Rolling stone does an article on Satanism, they are referring to the philosophy that was born in the counterculture movement of the 60's. When artists, actors, celebrities, and most often times writers/authors talk about modern Satanism in America, they are referring to Modern Satanism (LaVeyan Satanism). When someone finds out that one of their favorite musicians or celebrities are a Satanist, they might come to Wikipedia to find out what this belief is all about and what it entails.
Now, I'll be the first one to tell you that when it comes to joining an organization to consecrate who you are or what you believe that I personally think it is very silly. A philosophy is a lot bigger than some "club" that you join just to prove to yourself that you are a <insert ist or ism here>. I would just like to see the popular and contemporary use of a word, that describes a philosophy, be accurately described, in encyclopedic form, here at Wikipedia.
When you mention Satanism in the mainstream press or the subculture press, most people in the know, know you are referring to the Satanism that was born in the counterculture movement. And Modern Satanism is that definition which most people are looking for when they come to Wikipedia. Now the 4 or 5 people here that are monitoring the article daily aside, the vast majority of those who describe themselves as a Satanist or describe someone else as a Satanist, are describing the philosophy of Modern Satanism. I think it’s only fair to accurately define this term using the media, subculture, and the vast majority of its practitioners as the barometer, rather than what the sorely disproportionate sampling of editors here think it is or should be. That’s just how I feel. Absinthe (Talk) 06:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed you said "Most people in the know" which implies that your and CoS's definition is not the common definition. Also the rolling Stone's magazine article was an interview with Anton LaVey therefore of course the article is going to reflect the CoS definition. For the tenth billionth time, your definition is not what the majority of people around the world think of when they hear or see the word Satanism. To try to push your definition here is merely attempting to manipulate reality to make your definition become the popular one. As I have shown you, I'm here to prevent that. Furthermore the only encyclopedias that define Satanism as you do got their feeds from Wikipedia.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 15:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Michael, the only thing you are here to prevent is a productive and healthy discussion. So from here on out when I say things like, "Let me throw this out there as food for thought and get some feedback", I mean everyone except you. Your broad sweeping statements are unfounded; you are more concerned with appearing to be right than you are with bringing something of substance to the discussion, and it’s clear from visiting your website that the only part of Satanism that interests you is the ego gratification you get from calling yourself the Dark Lord High Priest Magus Guru God of the Underworld. So please, leave the discussion for people who have a genuine interest in the welfare of the article, k? Absinthe (Talk) 15:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Show me where I call myself Dark lord or magus or even guru for that matter. Again your attempts to manipulate reality merely expose you and your aims for what you really are and are trying to achieve.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 17:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Absinthe, defining a term simply by its popular definition is not encyclopedic. An encyclopedia has to generalize to embrace all views. Really, the most popular definition of Satanism in most Christian minds is not the one you would want to start out with, is it? Because let's face facts, that's the most common view in popular culture. I still think this article should start with a general definition acceptable to everyone, then break out into a paragraph or two on the distinct views, but let all the details of those views be in the subarticles. Personally, I think the influence of LaVey is fading fast. What you say was true in the 60s, 70s and even 80s, but things changed in the 90s, and the fields in much different in this century than it was then. Tunnels of Set 16:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm in full agreement with Tunnels of Set.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 17:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Tunnels, I might have to agree with you as it pertains to popular perception of Satanism. I was more referring to the informed perception/understanding. By informed I'm simply referring to anyone who has an understanding of the LHP, Occult, or general Subculture savvy.
I don't know that I agree with your statement regarding the LaVey's waning popularity in the 90's as there was a massive resurgence of Satanic interest in the 90's in the mass media and pop culture (partly thanks to the music industry) as well as the various subcultures. And while I don't see the interest in Satanism in the 2k era increasing, I don't see a dramatic downfall. With that said I also don't see any increase in the interest of Theistic Satanism, so I don't know that the Modern vs. Theistic popularity comparison plays.
Don't misread anything I'm saying with respect to Satanism. I have very broad interested in the world of subculture, counterculture and the occult; Satanism is simply one of the areas that I feel a sub-subculture shouldn't trump or even overshadow a mainstream subculture in encyclopedic form.
I would support a well organized (read: Easy to read/understand) article that might consist of a small 2-3 paragraph intro into Modern Satanism (with a link to Modern (LaVeyan) Satanism) followed by a brief overview of the history of the traditional use of the word 'Satanism' (including the Modern Day Theistic Practitioners and Philosophy of Satanism w/ Links to the Appropriate Articles).
If that works for the current handful of editors we have here now great; My main concern is that we have a coherent article that will allow the common reader to clearly understand what Satanism is, rather than ambiguously focusing on what it isn't. Absinthe (Talk) 17:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't you really mean you want the reader to accept the Church of Satan's definition over the populery known definition?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 20:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

That seems to be the point... otherwise, why was the article on the Order of Nine Angles DELETED from Wikipedia? Did I miss the discussion on that? 207.34.120.71 20:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey I can help with that question! It might of gotten deleted because it needed citations. See the talk page on Theistic Satanism. I took some edits personally but after talking to people I found out not to, because most of the circumstances were me not knowing or understanding enough of wikkipedias policies and structure. I'm sure if you write an article on ONA and cite its sources it should fly like the rest.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 21:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


Okay....so you disagree with the article. You think its simplistic....so IMPROVE IT. Write it. Fix it up. Edit it. But revert it to a form that confines itself to ONE form isn't the point of Wiki. WerewolfSatanist 21:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

What I find overtly amusing is the subtle way they are trying to say the one true Satanism.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 21:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


Do you think that the former article appeared out of thin air? No, rather it was the work of several people and numerous hours of labor, only to have a handle full of "Theistic Satanists" come in and dismiss it out of hand because "it's biased" and then replace it with an ambiguous page that doesn't cite the first source. So how about you take a little of your own advice and improve the current crap article instead of reverting the one that was built over time with the consensus of the editors here?

Please clarify, "doesn't cite the first source". What exactly are you saying or requesting?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 22:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You know, everyone was squawking that you have to participate on the talk page to edit or revert, but as soon as someone comes in and actually starts talking about the points of the article and what it should be, etc. the only thing that appears on the talk page is more childish bitching rather than discussion (TunnelsOfSet being the lone exemption in this case).
So either start discussing the merits of what's been proposed or get out of the way. Absinthe (Talk) 21:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Please clarifyRev. Michael S. Margolin 22:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Yo Abmaster2,000 how is Sinagogue of Satan an irrelevant link? Are you sure you are not editing through personal bias? I request a revert to his action toward SoS 04:54, 17 January 2007 Absinthe999 (Talk | contribs) (removed irrelevant links)Rev. Michael S. Margolin 02:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

All external links were removed; sorry that you lost the link to your personal website. Can we get back to discussing how to best make this article concise and accurate from an encyclopedic standpoint? I've yet to see your input on the current proposal(s) thus far. Absinthe (Talk) 07:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If the SoS website is my personal website than the Church of Satan web site is Gilmore's personal web site.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 15:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

My input is keep the article we have now because the one you want is as biased as your last edit. Notice that the only links left though they are internal links point the reader to the church of satan and Karla Lavey's church and no others?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 14:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Absinthe, you were incorrect remove just the Sinagogue of Satan link. Edits like that will not help us achieve a compromise article. However, if we are going to have multiple articles, then the links should go on the appropriate article, not here, so I removed them all. The only links that would be appropriate are links to general overviews which cover all aspects of Satanism, as it is proposed to do in this article, and preferable they should not be on the site of one of the organizations which are in competition with each other. A link to an appropriate DMOZ category might be useful here, though... Tunnels of Set 14:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I was just coming to inform you that the paragraph that starts off "Belief in any such externalized deities is generally considered grounds for excluding someone as a Satanist..." has a sentence added at the end of it that seriously looks like it wasn't intended to be there, but added by some malicious person. TemporalShift 17:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Adding internal links proposal

The links that follow pertain to the Satanism article and are internal links. I wish to add them in this order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Fire_Club

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Templi_Orientis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_Gnostica_Catholica (possibly adding to Churches links)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.M.O.R.C. (possibly adding to Churches links)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_Church (possibly adding to Churches links)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPY (possibly adding to Churches links)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics (possibly adding to Churches links)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Feed back please.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 04:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, no. They are not closely enough related. If they were to be discussed in the article, then they could of course be linked to, but see also is not for a laundry list of vaguely related topics. Hellfire Club is the only closely related one. Adding links to organizations which don't identify themselves as Satanic is right out. Tunnels of Set 18:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Set. I added all of them because at one time or another they were accused of being Satanists so I thought they fell within the Christian Persecution zone. Thanks for keeping Hellfire Club. A note on Topy P-orridge has gone through hormoanal treatment to grow breasts and become a woman. He wants to be a living Baphomet, silly yes but no more silly than Manson and his rubber female body. Although I think Manson is the wiser in this case.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 19:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

LaVey rejects the Black Mass

CoS practices it's own black mass so is this line missleading?Rev. Michael S. Margolin 19:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

LaVey rejects the Black Mass, cruelty to animals, or a literal belief in (or worship of) Satan, instead considering Satan as the human instict within ourselves, which is what LaVeyan Satanism celebrates; the human instinct. Instead he supports a view of human beings as animals and rejects many social structures that inhibit our instincts.Rev. Michael S. Margolin 03:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection removed

I've removed the semi-protection from this page; please encourage all new users and even IP editors to discuss any edit warring here first, and keep up the vandalism fighting. -- Natalya 03:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


Metal & Satanism

First of all, "Black Metal" is a misleading term to describe metal and satanism because it isn't just black metal thats satanic, there are several sub-genres (not the entirity of each sub-genre, just a few bands among them) of "Heavy Metal" that supports satanism, and its not just heavy metal, instead there have been several musicians of other genres to do this as well. Secondly, it wasn't black metal artists that invented that "devil-horned hand signal," it was the "Traditional Metal" artist & musician Ronnie James Dio. And finally the "hand signal" wasn't invented to mean "Hail Satan!," it was based on the ancient superstition of the "Evil Eye," and it was never used (as far as I know) to mean "hail satan," in fact, it is used as a salute among the "Metalhead Subculture." These statements within the article are misleading and greatly stereotypes both heavy metal and satanism, therefore I demand that they are either taken off the article, or modified in some way to be more correct, if this does not happen within a week I will do this myself!-Anonymous 2:48, Mar. 27, '07