Talk:Sarmatism

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To translate: trzymanie się rodzimych rozwiązań o bryłach gotyckich i specyficznej dekoracji stiukowej sklepieńm w architekturze — w rzeźbie — nagrobek leżący oraz półpostaciowy; w malarstwie — zjawisko aktualizacji (wkomponowywanie w malowidła ołtarzowe wizerunków osób w strojach współczesnych), powstanie portretu sarmackiego, m.in. trumiennego o indywidualnych cechach polskich.

Why this page is protected from editing? Ek8 16:52, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Check history :( And Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Zivinbudas. I could unblock it, if you want to add something. If we are lucky we may even get a few days without the troll noticing it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] "Pacifism"?

Come on :) --HanzoHattori 20:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

17th century pacifics :) Of course, there were extreme pacifists, but szlachta can be considered pacificts compared to other contemporary groups: they saw no profit in wars and had enough control of the state to ensure it didn't attack its neighbours.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  21:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling, vocab & grammar

This article needs to be rewritten. Numerous errors in grammar & style; vocabulary may need a clean-up to avoid obsolete or rare words. Cleaned up some of the major eyesores already, but someone with sufficient knowledge of Polish will better understand what the author is trying to say. 129.125.179.52 09:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)ErikCats

[edit] Material from "Sarmatians" article--move here?

There's a lot of material on this matter in the article on Sarmatians. I think that material should be moved here. 72.66.108.162 13:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Agreed. Also, dear anon (Stephen?), please consider registering.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree to consider. I would point out--in a friendly way--that I'm here under my real name. I haven't registered (yet), and I haven't taken the time to inform myself on acceptable standards for substantive contributions to Wikipedia. To date, I've only made grammar fixes and established or corrected links. Any substantive changes I've wanted to see, I've proposed on talk pages. On the page for Sarmatians, regrouping the sections to make clear what refers to Sarmatism as opposed to Sarmatians is by far the most substantial edit I've made to Wikipedia. 72.66.108.162 02:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza
Registering allows one to reply to you directly on your talk page. PS. I am also here under my real name, and from the point of your registering all minor or major edits can be easily linked to you. It also gives you many tools and since it takes just few seconds... it is highly recommended. See Wikipedia:Why create an account?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Another "Aye!" here. The material looks meaty enough. LarrisM 01:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Please delete stuff from Sarmatians as soon as you incorporate it in this article because it doesn't make much sense over there. Thanks. -- AdrianTM 18:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with all of the above.--91.148.159.4 19:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the above. Article about Sarmatians is rasist Aryan propaganda. Polish should never abandon their place as rightfull descendents of Ancient Sarmatians.
My negative opinion about the sources used in Sarmatians article, which make it a bad article in overall:
Sources used in article are Classical authors. They put officially Sarmatians as the people of Iranian stock even if they refer like crazy to the only Asiatic Sarmatian tribe of Alans all the time forgeting about Baltic Sarmatians or Hyperboreans living in Germanic lands of Europe, so not very Asiatic or very of Iranian stock people it would seem like to be.
The source used in this text is Encyclopedia Britanica which stinks overly with rasist Aryan Anthroposophy. It is not a serious XXI century modern science like modern archeology and modern genetics for example.
Sources not used in this article are Chinese ancient authors. Are they not Anthroposophic enough to be mentioned? Or maybe they are just simply too contradicting the Encyclopedia Britanica hypothesis that Sarmatians are of "Iranian stock" statement?
Sources not used in this article are archeologic finds, which show clearly that the ancient Sarmatian people of Alans living in territory of modern Eastern China were also red and blond haired, so these ancient Sarmatian people known as Alans couldn't biologically be of Iranian stock according to genetic finds about gene of red hairs and its origins. These Asian Sarmatians were abviously of Germanic or Slavic peoples stock (as to use the language) just living in today's territory of Eastern China's deserts and steps. Certainly Mongols or Scythians, who were also battling China's ancient armies, were not famous in being the Asians with blond and red hairs. Which makes also sense with all classic authors reports about Sarmatians living also in Northern and Eastern Europe, which are blantantly forgotten.
Sources not used in article are genetic finds, which show clearly that non-Germanic and non-Iranian native people of Northern Europe with I1a and I1b Y-DNA are responsible for carrying the red hairs gene of Homo Neanderthal (native European species of man), which was passed on Homo Cromagnon (native European species of man) and then to I1 Y-DNA Homo Sapiens (the native European modern man). Now I know only of one European people who can have red hairs. They are the modern Slavic and Germanic peoples. So obviously Asiatic Sarmatians tribe of Alans have more in common with modern Slavic peoples stock, then with Iranian stock. It has to be mentioned that I1 Y-DNA natively exists only in Europe with 25% or more population of Europe having it with exception of Spain and Italy, where it is rather very rare and where we know Sarmatians historicaly never lived in ancient times. The exception seems to be only Cuacasian Ossetians, Kurds and etc, where reach of "red haired" Sarmatian I1 Y-DNA should be natural because the move of the only Asiatic Sarmatians known as Alans from territory of modern Eastern China to Caucasus, which is testifyed plentifully by both ancient Chinese authors and classical European authors.
Therefore I demand, as Polish Nobleman and ethnic Sarmatian man that all material about Polish Sarmatism should be moved in its Polish part entirely over to article about Sarmatian people.
Pan Piotr Glownia 15:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
[PS. And by the way Germanic R1b Y-DNA is not the cause of "nordic" red and blond hairs in Europe. I1 Y-DNA is the responsible DNA and it is not Germanic Y-DNA for sure. Further its spread in Europe is very identic with places where ancient Sarmatian peoples lived in Europe according to classical authors in Europe and movememnts of Celtic people from Central Europe to Western Europe and then to British Islands.]
O Boze, Piotr Glownia z swoimi teoriami na wikipedii.. Mr Piotr, The remaining skeletons of Sarmatian and Scythian origina are mainly r1a. Second, y chromosome is responsible for children sex, not outlook. Third, there is no confirmation of any genetical difference between Polish nobility and the rest of the nation. Do not twist the facts or try to present your petty theories as something as established "truth" Szopen (talk) 09:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed Polish info from Sarmatians article, if you need to merge some info from there you can fish it from history: [2] -- AdrianTM 16:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I am pasting the removed material below, so we can consider merging it into this article.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I have merged the useful parts, leaving the crackpot theory below.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Relation to real Sarmatians

The Polish nobles who played the central role in the structure of political power in the Rzeczpospolita believed that they were descendants of the ancient tribe, Sarmatians.

Polish coat of arms are similar to sarmatian tamgas.

The haplotype diversity [1] and frequecy of R1a1 [2] [3] [4] DNA prove that the Polish Sarmatin tradition has factual basis and is inherited from ancestors. 56% percent of Poles have the R1a1 Y chromosome gene [5]

[edit] Notes

  1. ^ Pawlowski, R; Dettlaff-Kakol A, Maciejewska A, Paszkowska R, Reichert M, Jezierski G (2002). "Population genetics of 9 Y-chromosome STR loci in Northern Poland". Arch Med Sadowej Kryminol. 52 (4): 261-77. PMID 14669672.  (in Polish; English abstract)
  2. ^ http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/R1a_large_RG.jpg
  3. ^ Pericic, M; Lauc LB, Klaric IM, Rootsi S, Janicijevic B, Rudan I, Terzic R, Colak I, Kvesic A, Popovic D, Sijacki A, Behluli I, Dordevic D, Efremovska L, Bajec DD, Stefanovic BD, Villems R, Rudan P (2005). "High-resolution phylogenetic analysis of southeastern Europe traces major episodes of paternal gene flow among Slavic populations". Mol. Biol. Evol. 22 (10): 1964-75. PMID 15944443.  Haplogroup frequency data in table 1
  4. ^ Semino, A; Passarino G, Oefner PJ, Lin AA, Arbuzova S, Beckman LE, De Benedictis G, Francalacci P, Kouvatsi A, Limborska S, Marcikiae M, Mika A, Mika B, Primorac D, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA (2000). "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective". Science 290: 1155-1159. PMID 11073453. 
  5. ^ [1]

[edit] Discussion

As far as I know, this is a pure crackpot theory, and the above is WP:OR - none of the above articles states that there is a relation between Sarmatians and Poles. PS. To clarify: by crackpot theory I mean the one stating that the connection is real; of course it is a well-estabilished fact that many among szlachta believed in this legend. PS2. This was also discussed above.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 11:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)