Talk:San Pietro in Vincoli

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[edit] Moses

The article states

This kind of iconographic symbolism was common in early sacred art, and in this case gives ease to the sculptor (as sculpting concrete horns is easier than sculpting abstract light) and would have been understood by all who saw it as referring to the radiance of Moses' face; they would not have actually thought that he had horns. [misspellings corrected]

No doubt the first half is true; however, it very much needs to be backed up by a link to an article on symbolism in medieval Christian art, particularly representations of Moses, and the Vulgate translation of Exodus 34:29–35.

The rest of it, beginning with the word would, is, sadly, untrue. No doubt it would be understood this way by art historians; however, I and other Jews have occasionally met Christians who said they were taught and once believed that Jews had horns (not only Moses — all Jews!). Because of this, both the statue and the translation offend many Jews. A fair and balanced article should mention this; after all, Moses' horns are what makes the church a famous tourist attraction.

The reference to “early sacred art” reveals the writer's (perhaps subconscious) bias; it implies that only Christian art can be “sacred”, as if the art of other religions is not.

In the sentence immediately preceding the quotation, the article claims that the confusion arises from the similarity of two Latin words. In fact, the problem arose in the original Hebrew. The Hebrew noun qeren means horn in English, and the verb qaran formed from this noun means he had horns. But qaran is also used figuratively to mean he emitted rays of light (sort of like horns) [paraphrasing Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Brown, Driver & Briggs]; usually translated in English by was shining or was radiant or the like.

The Hebrew Wikipedia quotes the Bible passage. The German Wikipedia forthrightly attributes the problem to a translation error, comparing the Latin words coronata and cornuta, without making claims on the understanding of “all who saw” the statue. The Spanish Wikipedia article seems to be a translation of the English, so it has the same faults. The articles in the other languages apparently do not mention the horns, but most of these are stubs.

(Looking at the picture, I am struck by the seated pose. It reminds me of the even more famous statue of Abraham Lincoln [[1]] in Washington DC; here the architect and the sculptor deliberately evoked the Roman Republic of Cicero’s day; still significant today — the statue appears in extreme miniature on the US 1¢ coin and the US $5 bill. Are there statues of ancient Romans sitting on thrones? Links to discussions in art history or political iconography would be interesting.)

--Yudeleli 02:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair comment, I've separated the statements and asked for a citation.Moonraker12 (talk) 14:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's any help, there's another depiction of this 'radiance' in Rome, but I can't remember exactly where. It's a fresco, and has these golden flashes on the forehead, like a severe set of eyebrows. If anyone is in Rome and is able to track it down I can tell you to within six guesses where to look. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

The opening sentence says it is a basiica, but the Basilica page lists only 5 in Rome, not including this one. I'm not clear if this is a case of using 'basilica' as a synonym for 'church'. Or maybe it's a reference to its architecture. I suggest changing the opening sentence to "San Pietro in Vincoli is a church in Rome...", and " It is also a basilica, ..." giving the explanation why. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)