Talk:Salan
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[edit] Simeon
I notice you call Simeon "emperor", but I think it should be tsar. I know that car means "emperor" in modern Serbian, and the word did mean "emperor" in the Slavic language of Simeon's days, but the Russian and Bulgarian titles are traditionally rendered as tsar in English (even though "the Bulgarian empire" is an existent notion in English, unlike Bulgarian). BTW, the word has come to mean just "king" in modern Russian and Bulgarian. --85.187.44.131 11:42, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comments and questions
- Is there any more source about Salanus than Gesta Hungarorum? If this is the only source, the information in the article might not be 100% true.
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- See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salan#Sources Quote: "The 10th century Lombard chronicler, Liudprand, also wrote about a Hungarian victory over the Bulgarians and the Byzantines in the early 10th century." - that would be other source although indirect one. It should be checked what other sources mention him. PANONIAN 14:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Why is he called Salan or Салан in the article when Anonymus calles him Salanus?
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- Because many sources call him by that name, for example: http://curug.rastko.net/9-vek/img/karta/9vek.jpg PANONIAN 14:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- According to Gesta Hungarorum, not only Bácska, but the whole area between the Danube and Tisza up to the Polish border, was ruled by Salanus. Why only Bácska is mentioned in the article?
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- Because my source show only that: http://curug.rastko.net/9-vek/img/karta/9vek.jpg Perhaps you can expand article with other data if you have it. PANONIAN 14:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
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- My source is the Chronicle text itself. I will make the modifications. --KIDB 15:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Because my source show only that: http://curug.rastko.net/9-vek/img/karta/9vek.jpg Perhaps you can expand article with other data if you have it. PANONIAN 14:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
If there are other sources than Anonymus, that would answer my questions but if he is te only source, the article is rather vaguely written --KIDB 06:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
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- As I said, it should be checked is there any other sources, but anyway the Anonymus is indeed controversial source, but since there is no any source that contradict to Anonymus in this case, the story about Salan could be accepted as possible true since other sources confirm that Bulgarians ruled over this area. PANONIAN 14:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately references about Bulgarian rule don't prove the existence of Salan, he can easily be a legendary person made up by Anonymus. It seems to me that Anonymus is the only source for this Salanus guy. --KIDB 15:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- We do not know is it only source - it is just only source that we (you and me) know for, which does not mean that other sources do not exist. PANONIAN 17:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately references about Bulgarian rule don't prove the existence of Salan, he can easily be a legendary person made up by Anonymus. It seems to me that Anonymus is the only source for this Salanus guy. --KIDB 15:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
- As I said, it should be checked is there any other sources, but anyway the Anonymus is indeed controversial source, but since there is no any source that contradict to Anonymus in this case, the story about Salan could be accepted as possible true since other sources confirm that Bulgarians ruled over this area. PANONIAN 14:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Sources
I based my edits on the Gesta text itself. If Gesta Hungarorm was the only source of your scientists, they manipulated their results. The map they made doesn't correspond to the Gesta text either. Please read the original text, it is available in Hungarian and in Latin on the net. If you don't understand these languages, ask a Hungarian friend to read them for you - he/she will confirm I am right. Please note that I am not saying there were no Bulgarian (or Slavic) rulers in the area, I only think that it is not sure their name was Salan and their lands were just as described in the Legend. If we fully believed what is written there, we should agree that Árpád was the descendent of Attila and Russian borders reached the Carpathians in the 5-6th century. --KIDB 08:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Well name of this article is "Salan", not "the mention of Salan in Gesta Hungarorum". In another words, we have books written by various historians about Salan who obviously used methods and sources that you are not aware of (and there is no proof that they "manipulated their results" as you claim). The purpose of Wikipedia is to present data from all these sources, not from only one of them. Basically, you want that we use data from Gesta and to IGNORE all other sources - I am sorry but that is neither scientific neither NPOV neither in accordance with other articles written on Wikipedia. I do not object that you use data from Gesta, but data from other books and web links should be used as well. PANONIAN 16:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Regarding mention of "after the death of Attila" time reference, this does not mean in the time of Attila, but "after his death", which could mean "long after his death" as well. PANONIAN 16:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Map
![Voivodship (duchy) of Salan [citation needed]](../../../../images/shared/thumb/d/df/Salan.png/300px-Salan.png)
I moved the map here because I think it is not correct. According to the text of Gesta Hungarorum, the borders of the lands controlled by the (imaginary or real) ruler called Salanus were in present-day Northern Hungary.
- I am sorry, but I showed to you reference with exactly same map: http://curug.rastko.net/9-vek/img/karta/9vek.jpg Perhaps the author of that map used certain sources and expert opinions that you are not aware of. In another words, my map is well sources and you have no reason to remove it - perhaps you can draw another map reflecting your opinion where northern border was. PANONIAN 16:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- My Slavonic Brother :-), please read the article, it says: "The main historical source about duke Salan is a historical chronicle known as Gesta Hungarorum" if this is true, your scientists used this, too, and the text of the chronicle itself should be the main reference. --KIDB 18:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
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- The fact is that these historians probably combined data from Gesta with other data regarding border between Bulgarian and Moravian state in this time and therefore, the presented borders of the duchy probably reflecting that combined data. PANONIAN 19:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
