Talk:Sacred geometry/Archive 1

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Contents

Archive of Talk:Sacred_geometry up to July 1, 2006

I removed the examples of Euler's identity and the collaboration graph, since they don't fit the given definition: they are precisely describably by geometry/algebra and not mere approximations of something deeper. AxelBoldt, Saturday, March 30, 2002

Removed this

and some modern physicists expressed similar ideas, especially Schrödinger, Heisenberg and Bohm.

None of them to my knowledge has expressed the idea that there exist geometries which are beyond algebraic description or human comprehesive. This sounds to me like "Dancing Wu-Li Master"/"Tao of Physics" nonsense.

This whole article seems highly questionable to me (what on earth is "neo-Platonic geometry"???) and it either needs a serious overhaul, clarification, and references to some legitimate publications, or else deletion. Revolver 06:13, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

About Users Critical and CStar

For the record, the user Critical ( talk, contributions), who slapped the "disputed NPoV" sticker on this page, has made his or her first edits tonight (or today) and within less than two hours has attacked eight articles for PoV, including (ironically given the CStar example given on the Logical fallacy talk page), Physical law. These were the only "edits" (plus weak justifications on talk pages in the same vein as this one). I don't think the PoV claim has merit. We may ask if this series of attacks is to be taken seriously.

For the following reasons I am thinking that these pages has been the victim of a tiresome semi-sophisticated troll and the PoV sticker should be removed sooner rather than later, if not immediately. We may note that CStar ( talk, contributions) after making edits, paused during the period user Critical made edits, and then CStar took up responding to these edits after the series of user Critical edits ends, as if there is only one user involved, and the user logged out, changed cookies and logged back in. Further, user CStar left a note on Charles Matthew's talk page, Chalst's talk page, and Angela's talk page pointing to a supposed PoV accusation placed on the Logical argument page, when in fact no such sticker has been placed. Perhaps the irony regarding the Physical law page is not so ironic. Hu 05:18, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

I have responded to this on the logical fallacy talk page, as well as on the pages of the above mentioned users. It does appear that these pages were as Hu suggests the victim of a tiresome semi-sophisticated troll. But I wasn't the perpetrator. This suggestion appears to have been an honest mistake, I consider the matter closed, and it appears that Hu does as well. CSTAR 01:41, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated claims

This does seem to be an odd page. At least three notions are conflated: the notion of sacred geometry as used in archaeology and the history of architecture; a rather vague idea that some mystical, semi-mystical, and other religious traditions use geometrical shapes in their teachings and literature; and an even vaguer gesture towards real philosophy of mathematics which isn't explained (the reference to Plato is extremely misleading). None of the the claims in the article is substantiated, the only source provided being a rather loopy "Geomancy" Web site.

Surely this article need to be substantially rewritten (or removed altogether, and any useful information added to articles on the subjects conflated here). I've added a rewrite template to the page itself. If I get the chance I'll do some of this myself, but if anyone were to beat me to it I'd not grumble. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:39, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, just be aware that the golden ratio seemed to play a variety of mystical roles in ancient greece. Whether or not any of this mysticism was expressed in actual architecture appears to be debatable, (from what I recall reading recently (some of this may have been wishful thinking by 19th century classics scholars)). Does it really make sense to split out the discussion of the golden ratio in greek mysticism from possible architectural manifestations? linas 13:50, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Those with information out of the mainstream

Or those with information that does not fit Wikipedia's NPOV style. We would be glad to have you add it in to a conspiracy wiki site I run. There is a link to sacred geometry on the main page and I just copied the article over. You can find a link to the site on my page. Conwiki 02:48, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Important concept

I've added a book link (Robert Lawlor) to the main page. This excellent, popular and serious book could be taken to define what the concept "sacred geometry" really means. I think it's a very good concept capturing a certain aspect of various human cultures, and I think a good article on this belongs to a good modern encyclopedia. If nothing else, then a brief summary of the book would be good. Who can write that? --Niels Ø 12:29, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

That may be, nonetheless, the article is extremely poorly written, at least from an academic standpoint (as compared to...babbling standpoint). It makes vague or inadequately expressed assertions, gives little support or evidence, contains wild or speculation, and gives little reason why all these things should be considered simultaneously. The book may be better, but this article still is lacking and as it appears belongs on newagewiki.org, not wikipedia. Revolver 07:14, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree.--Niels Ø 14:08, May 21, 2005 (UTC)

List of important topics

let it be known that I know nothing about this subject and just find it relatively interesting, however, I think maybe if we start a list of topics that either deserve sections or sub-sections we can work out an organization for this article gren 12:51, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Example of Non-Sacred Geometry?

What would be an example of non-sacred geometry? Seventhpower 05:06, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Is this what is being said?

Geometry exists.

Observers observe geometry.

Discoverers discover geometry.

Geometry itself is not sacred.

The observer’s observation of geometry is sacred.

The discover’s discovery of geometry is sacred.

God exists.

Language exists.

Religion exists.

Sacred geometry is a language.

Sacred geometry communicates.

Sacred geometry communicates from God.

Sacred geometry communicates to people.

Language is composed of symbols.

Symbols represent ideas.

Geometry represents ideas.

Geometry is a written language

Graphic representations symbolize religious or cultural values.

Geometry symbolizes religious or cultural values.

Religious or cultural values are ideas.

Graphical representations represent mathematical relationships.

Geometry represents mathematical relationships.

...graphical representation of [the mathematical relationships and (of) the design] or ...value to [the graphical representation and (to) the design]?

...design [that symbolizes] or ... manmade objects [that symbolize]?

What’s the difference between geometry and graphical representations?

What’s the difference between geometry and designs?

What’s the difference between geometry and manmade objects that symbolize?

What is meant by “mathematical relationships?”

Mathematics is the science of measurement. In order to have mathematical relationships, you have to have two or more measurements, or a measurement and a calculation. What are you measuring?

Is the Golden Ratio sacred geometry to some and non-sacred geometry to others?

Are the examples of the use of the Golden Ratio sacred geometry to some and non-sacred to others?

What is the difference between the intrinsic nature of the universe and the extrinsic nature of the universe?

What is the difference between the mathematical order and the mathematical disorder of nature?

What is the difference between a discovered order and a rediscovered order?

What is the difference between a rediscovered order and a supposed rediscovered order?

Why do crop circles represent order, but crop straight-rows do not represent order?

Straight rows of wheat don't communicate anything.

Seventhpower 06:40, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

How is sacred geometry associated with meaning?

Does one association infer a pattern?

How are associations taught?

How are associations learned?

How are associations interpreted?

Are the associations interpreted differently by different people?

What is the difference between mentally healthy people who associate special meanings with sacred geometry, and people with mental illness who associate special meanings with sacred geometry?

Seventhpower 05:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is pretty shocking NPOV-wise, I've added a template on the page and propose that unless someone is willing to give it a substantial re-write it be deleted. Graphia 08:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the text you are objecting to was added on 16-17 dec 2005 and should have been deleted at that time. Unfortunately, this article is a magnet for odder edits, and there does not seem to be anyone qualified who is watching it. If you still think its npov, add that sticker. linas 03:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I'd be willing to take this on (In fact, I started an account specifically because I would like to). I'm new to Wikipedia though, so let me catch up on style and such before I tackle it. --Blade 21:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Significant edits

I have inserted some material relating the topic to historical (ancient and medieval) ideas and beliefs, which is a large part of its significance, and explaining the links which were believed to exist between geometry, music, cosmology and temple design/religious art. Added in some refs to Pythagoras, Kepler and other historical believers in the cosmological significance of geometry. Hopefully I have been sufficiently NPOV and factual. Also added reference to Celtic design and the classic George Bain book. He doesn't discuss theory to a great degree but does demonstrate that the sacred art of both ancient and medieval Celts was closely based on geometric constructions. MikeRM 03:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Nice edits Blade 18:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I added edits of my own: some information on contemporary usage of sacred geometry, including information on the Flower of Life Workshops, the MERU foundation; Michael Schneider's book to the book list. I also removed the initial paragraph: 'Sacred geometry is geometry that is sacred to the observer or discoverer of the geometry. This meaning is sometimes described as being the language of the God of the religion of the people who discovered or used it.' This just seemed too fluffy without any real content. Blade 19:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Crop Circles

I removed 'Crop Circles' from Art and Architecture. I don't think it belongs in that section. Plus, it wasn't formatted correctly. Blade 17:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


More Edits

I removed the links to Soul Symbol until that article has more references/substance. Alsi, I re-organized the external links and removed the Kepler links, as the links in the text seem sufficient. Blade 18:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Architecture

Is there any need for the section regarding the Manitoba Assembly Building? There has to be a more relevant example of sacred geometry in Architecture.


Reversions

Removed link to Earthmandalakeepers.com as an ad link. Blade 02:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverted edits to the intro after 31 August 2006 for distinct lack of NPOV and not actually addressing the tone or content of the article. Blade 16:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Commentary

I don't know who wrote this page, but it would be well to inform him or her that scientific work established on geometries, symmetries and super symmetries are very much alive! keppler was certainly not the last of 'a dying breed' as the article suggests.

Further, this article is strangely critical of a mathematical and geometrical explanation of phenomena. very strange indeed. there is nothing 'superstitious or uneducated' about the golden ratio. the aesthetics of the golden ration is accepted by most including artists. Please do not attribute scientific knowledge to be unscientific!

However, this article is not about the scientific work based off of geometries. It is about sacred geometry, that is 'attributing a religious or cultural value to the graphical representation of the mathematical relationships'. The scientific validity of the concepts are not the perview of this article. Blade 02:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with the former. Upon a first read I felt the writer's sneer quite palpably. I would say that a good many of the folks interested in SG are drawn to it from a sense of wonder and an aesthetic appreciation for The Great Way of Things which does not have to imply a soft-headed, "New Age", sensibility. For some of us the "ordinary" is far more profound and inspiring (read: "sacred") than any promises of the transcendental. 8/10/07 earrach

Music

Someone posted "This is not true" at the end of the music section. I have removed it. However, if anyone has citations for or against that section, please chime in! Blade 23:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"a ratio of 2/3 produced a fifth and 3/4 produced a fourth." I have no citation, but how does 2/3 produce a perfect fifth and 3/4 produce a perfect fourth? A fifth would be higher up on the string than the fourth.

  • Well, Pythagorean Tuning mentions the ratios as 3:2 and 4:3, so it looks like the original author got the order of the numbers wrong. I will correct. Blade 13:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Think of it this way. Imagine a string 12 inches long that, when plucked, produces the pitch C. If you stop the top 1/4 of the string (by pressing on a fretted fingerboard, for example), the remaining 3/4 (that is 9 inches) will produce the pitch F, a P4 higher. If you stop the top 1/3 of the string, allowing the remaining 2/3 (or 8 inches) to vibrate, the pitch G will be produced, a P5 higher than the fundamental C. So, in that sense, 2/3 does produce a P5 and 3/4 a P4. OscarTheCat3 17:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

pyramids scientific sacred geometry - demand for adding link to links

http://users.pandora.be/kenneshugo/index.html is a website containing translations of representative topics out of the 10 books in Dutch of Prof. Thijs , Engeneering , Belgian University and High School of Hasselt. This books describe the pyramids sacred geometry as full compatible with the laws of our positive sciences. He gives a mathematical and astronomical explanation of the pyramidal model. He also decodes the explicit number metaphors in the Bible Ancient and New Testament, reflecting exactly the maths and geometry of the Great Pyramid model.