Talk:Sabir people
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[edit] Sabirs, Sumerians, etc.
This statement was posted to the article. I removed it because argument does not belong in an article.
- Reply to the previous statement: The connection between Sabirs/Hun/Magyars with ancient Sumerians and Mitanni (Subartu) is not based on etymologies, but on cultural features. In any case, language is relevant since the Sumerian records were deciphered taking Hungarian as the closest tongue of reference.
Please provide citations to legitimate scholarly publications. The Sumerian language article doesn't even mention Hungarian. I have heard a theory that Sumerian may possibly be somehow related to the Uralic languages but that is a far cry from the above. In any event there is no evidence that the Sabirs were linguistically related to the Hungarians except in a distant way. --Briangotts 02:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Briangotts, what exactly do you mean by "there is no evidence that the Sabirs were linguistically related to the Hungarians except in a distant way"? Are they or are they not related? Because if they were, they would obviously be related in a distant way, since they would be separated by hundreds of years in the case of Sabirs, and thousands of years in the case of Subarians. The Question 11:22, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
[edit] removed per WP:FRINGE
Russian historian Lev Gumilev believed that Slavic tribe Severians, inhabitants of Siverian Principality of Kievan Rus and later Russian and Ukrainian ethnic group named Sevryuki had inherited their name from Sabirs. Gumilev pointed that Sevryuki were different from other Russians and Ukrainians until 17th century and there are still some towns with similar names as Novhorod-Siverskyi. [1]
Gumilev agreed with those who thought that Sabirs were some part of the Huns but insisted that they were probably not of Turkic but of Ugric origin. He quotes Russian historians Y.Fedorov and G.Fedorov (First Turkic Peoples at North Caucasus, Moscow, 1978, pages 149, 154-155, Russian) and writes that Savirs "are commonly counted with Hunnic tribes" but were largely assimilated with local tribes. "Their leader held the title of Elteber (Russian: "эльтебер") and was a vassal of Khazar kagan". [2]
- I think that removal of this part is wrong. Gumilev's point of views shouldn't be marked as fringe theory. It is discussed by respected historians, it apeeared in different books, as though it is not now an officialy recognized theory. I included some quotes from his books to show it's not my original reserch. Rules of Wikipedia state that ideas which are of borderline or minimal notability may be documented in Wikipedia, but should not be given undue weight. This idea is notavle in Russian history as though it is not mainstream. Voropaev 13:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Confusion continues
There are at least five different versions of the origin of half nomandic Sabirs. The most reliable pays attention to their original "Urheimat" in Pamir area and later advance from northern Caucasus to present day area between Don (Tona) and Dnjepr (Dinjeper) where they were mixed with Itil Bolghars c. 550-650 AD. They received also cultural influence of Valgia (Volga) Finno Ugric peoples especially from Burttas and Maris. Their name was changed to Suvars and they settled to area of Simbir / Sembrir (Uljanov) where they received even more influence of Finno Ugrian "Imenkomas" (the original inhabitants of the area) of the Samaniland which might be one of Magyar tribes or descendants of Jäämis (Jems) or Komi-morts from Great Perma. Their leaders become known as Ilteber or in Tatar Jiltavar (Russificaned to Elteber). It might be of interest to notice that Ilteber Almis, the son of Selkei, appear in both Bolghar and Magyar sources in addition to Abassi Caliph Muktedir Billah´s ancient library in Baghdad and Kipchak Tatar folk tales under his Mussulmanni (Bisserman / Vissermanni) name Emir Cafer Bin Abdullah as reported by Ibn Fadlah. He was the richest man in Roshland (Orus). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.187.107 (talk) 02:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
