Talk:Sápmi (area)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Norway Portal
This article is part of WikiProject Norway, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Norway. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia The spoken word version of this article is part of WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia, an attempt to produce recordings of Wikipedia articles. To participate, visit the project page.

Contents

[edit] Barents region

Perhaps the last paragraph should be moved to a Barents Region article.

Done so, it is really two different thingm but with a geographiclly connection.

Note also thath the Finland Lapland county link points here - it probably should point to an article by itself. Egil 23:17 Feb 2, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Sapmi

An article covering the same region has been started at Sapmi, it should be merged with Lapland. See also Talk:Sapmi -- Mic 13:41, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

See Talk:Sapmi. I wish that the article about Finnmark, Lappland, Lapland and Kola halvön (Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia) should be named Sapmi or Sápmi. // Rogper 16:17, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I deleted the following footnote: "The word used by the inhabitans themself as well in e.g. weather forcasts is rather fjeld". If taken literally, it stated that the Sami call themselves and their language "fjeld" (an English form of a Swedish word for mountains), which is of course not true. Probably what was meant is that the Sami, when speaking Swedish, call their homelands "fjällen". I'm not an expert on Sami culture but the Sami homeland is certainly bigger than the mountain range. Even traditionally, many Sami were hunters living in the forest, and also the reindeer herding Sami often move far away from the mountains in winter.

No, that was not suppose to be specific to Sami.

The comment about "fjällen" was reintroduced, together with "Fennoscandia". Sorry, but Fennoscandia means Finland, Sweden and Norway, which is a much larger area. "Fjällen" means the mountain range, which is a much smaller area. Bvalltu 17:40, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Okay, take it or leave it. I'm referring to "the Fells" earlier in the article! :-) Fennoscandia include the Scandinavian part of the Caledonian rock (have I learned) and therefore not the whole Nordic. // Rogper 19:13, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Expanding and evolving

I think this article is a bit centred on the Swedish part of Sapmi, especially the conflicst-section. I am not saying that they ernt relevant, but it should be stated there that the information applies to the swedish part. Inge 16:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] People Section

The Sami are not called Finns in Norway. They are called samer. Several of the statements in the People-section seems to be a bit wrong. I am not sure if it is correct to say that the majority of samiland is sami either, but that is probably subject to how it is defined. It is probably not right to say that most sami herd reindeer either. Inge 16:15, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reindeer herding

Is it really necessary to say that only a minority of Saami are involved in reindeer herding in the introduction? To someone who knows nothing about the Saami—which I assure you is the majority of Australians, at least—it is so completely out-of-place it's just not funny. Maybe somewhere else... I hearby propose it's reworded to and placed elsewhere. Felix the Cassowary 10:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

It's a bit like saying "Every Swissman is not a clocksmith" on an article about Switzerland; on the other hand, people might have unusual impressions and prejudices, but on the other hand, it's a bit misplaced. --Vuo 22:59, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

A majority of the current population of this region has Sami ancestry, yet most identify with their respective nation-state ethnicities (only non-assimilated Sami are counted as Sami). I interpret this sentance to something like this (excagerated): The majority of the population are in fact Sami, but they have had their identities oppressed and at the same time you can not be counted as a Sami if you speak a non-Sami language, wear non-Sami clothes or do not work with reindeer. Any estimates about the ethnic divisions in this area are difficult. Many "non-Sami" might have Sami ancestors and many Sami might have non-Sami ancestors. So statements about this should be built on hard facts and surveys. The facts are that the non-sami population are in a huge majority. To speculate about some sami ancestry in the majority population in order to make them sami as well is not the way to go. I am sure that many Norwegians in Finnmark and other places with large sami populations have sami ancestry even if they concider themselves mostly Norwegian (ethnicly speaking). But this also has to do with identity and there is no contradiciton between being Sami and Norwegian (you can easily be both). A Norwegian public survey counted as Sami (for the purpose of the survey) all those who had at least one great grand-parent who spoke Sami. This made the Norwegian Samis number about 70 000. To say that only non-assimilated sami are consicered sami is not true and might be offensive to people who concider themselves Sami but don't live "traditionally" or speak Sami. I would like to remove this sentance and explain the situation in a better way. How can we best do this? Inge 17:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fennicisms

Hi there. This article seems to be inconsistent in the spelling, the intro prefers the Scandinavian Sami, while further down the Finnish version Saami predominates. I prefer Sami. //Big Adamsky 22:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I have changed the spelling. I think this was due to the fact that a long time ago I merged the Samiland article into this one. --Khoikhoi 01:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terms

I have removed the following terms from the intro: Sameland, Lappi, and Lappland. The first is the Norwegian word for Sapmi. Lappi I believe is the Finnish word for the Finnish Lappi region, and not for the entire Sampi. Similarly I believe Lappland is the Swedish word for the Swedish Lappland region only.Labongo 13:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I also think the article should be moved to Sapmi since it is the term prefered by the Sami people and is being increasingly used in english instead of Lapland.Labongo 13:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Lapland → Sápmi — I propose to move this article to Sapmi, since it is the term prefered by the Sami people and is being increasingly used in english instead of Lapland. This will also make it clearer that the articles is not about Finnish Lapland or Swedish Lappland.Labongo 15:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

[edit] Survey - Support votes

  1. Support, since I suggested the move.Labongo 09:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - Oppose votes

  1. Based on the comment below, I assume AAikio oppose.Labongo 09:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Must oppose. "Lapland" is not only about Sami people but also about many other peoples and cultures. The current article confuses these in a way that should be thoroughfully cleaned up. For example, the section about the flag implies that the Sami flag is used for the entire area. It is never used e.g. by Finns making a 90% majority of the people in the Finnish Lappland. Today, the Sami aspect is one of the many ways of experiencing and living Lappland, but by far not the only one. I would split the article in two, giving the Sami perspective a separate article. --Drieakko 08:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

I must object. First, while "Lapp" is often considered derogatory, this is not really the case with "Lapland" as a name of the area. Lapland is the generally used geographic designation in English, and the same concerns e.g. "Lappi" in Finnish. In newer references "Sa(a)mi" has already replaced the older term "Lapp", but "Lapland" as a geographical term has not been generally replaced by "Sápmi" or the like. While the usage of the latter may have somewhat increased, it is still marginal and not stylistically neutral; I don't think we can make a page move which would violate a commonly accepted usage. --AAikio 07:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have done some searching on the Internet and have found both names used by the United Nation, European Union and Lonely Planet. It seems like the english term used depends on the country of origin of the speaker, or where they have learned about the Sami. If the author/information is from Norway "Sapmi (Samiland)" is usually used, since Lapland is not commonly used in Norwegian. This is also reflected by the top ten results for the google queries "Sapmi" and "Lapland", where the Sapmi sites are about "things" in Norway and Sweden, while Lapland are for "things" in Finland. In conclusion, I don't find any of the names more commonly used (at least on the Internet).Labongo 11:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
If you want to go through with the move, please go through WP:RM and go through the full procedure. -Patstuarttalk|edits 20:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I have gone through all the steps now.Labongo 13:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The relevant policy here is Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which states: "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." Unless someone provides evidence that "Sápmi" is more common in English language usage than "Lapland", I feel the proposed move is unsupported by policy. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The article has been reorganized by moving large parts to Sami people and the remaining parts to Sápmi. See also the discussion below.Labongo 11:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Many names of Lapland

Like indicated in another discussion thread, the article is at the moment a somewhat mixed bag of Sami centric chapters and general Lapland material. Sami people make 3-4% of the population in Lapland, so while not forgetting them, neutral view requires also proper emphasize of all other peoples and cultures as well. Starting from the "Name" chapter, kindly list here all worries about its current state and neutrality, as well if it misses elements. --Drieakko 14:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Since this article is about the Sami cultural region, it should be Sami centric and only briefly discuss the other peoples living in the area. I assume that the readers of this article are mostly interested in the Sami aspects. The other people and cultures should be discussed in their own articles. Finally, without the Sami, the area in question would not be considered as a single region. Labongo 17:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Suggestions for improvements:
* The article should be renamed to Sapmi to avoid confusion with the Finnish and Swedish Lapland regions.
* The area section should describe the different views for what areas Sapmi covers, and how it has changed through time.
* The area section should also describe the counties and municipalities in the different countries that have significant Sami population, and special minority laws.
* A section should be added about the Sami national day.
* The Sami Parliaments section needs to be expanded.
* Add history section.
* Reorganize People section. It should be divided into sections about the different Sami "groups" (Norther Sami, Skolte-Sami, etc). The existing division into countries can be moved to a seperate subsection.
Labongo 17:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
About my now reverted edits in the Name section. I have four problems with the current text: 1) it is very confusing, 2) Finnmark has never been used instead of Lappland/Sapmi, 3) most "Lapp" place names in Norway use "Finn" instead of "Lapp", 4) it does not mention that many places have Sami names and that these neither starts with Lapp or Finn. Again, I am assuming that the reader is mostly interested in learning about the are where the Sami live.Labongo 17:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The general problem with this article is that it is poorly structured and contains a lot of minor inaccuracies. A major rewrite is needed, and I suggest we start planning one. Basically I agree with everything Labongo suggested except for the renaming. Lapland is the most widely known name for this region, and is not usually considered derogatory in the same way as Lapp.--AAikio 18:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Labongo and Ante. From what I can say about the article, content under title "Lapland" can not be solely about a Sami cultural region. If an article for that is needed (and that would be a great thing), it needs to be titled different. Today, "Lapland" is usually considered to be the geographical area in the northern Fennoscandia, with many different view points in local cultures and languages. I am not a Sami specialist, but it sounds like "Sapmi" and "Lapland" are today two different concepts and should be handled in separate articles. I'd suggest this article here to present only different ways of seeing the area, coming already apparent by presenting the multitudes of naming concepts, and talk about its climate, administrative regions (under which more about languages and peoples in different areas) and general geographical details. --Drieakko 19:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Labongo, about the name "Finnmark". In my understanding, the medieval Norwegian (Icelandic) texts quite clearly use the name Finnmark in the meaning of what Swedes called Lappland. "Finnmark" means "the land of the Sami people" and Swedish "Lappland" originally means the same. Please have a look e.g. this: "Finmark stretches along nearly all the inland region to the south, as also does Halogaland outside." --Drieakko 19:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Drieakko, I was not aware of that. But I still don't think that the area has traditionally been known as Finnmark, since Hålogaland is also covered by the region. Labongo 13:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Norway's Ministry of Trade and Industry calls today's Finnmark as "Norwegian Lapland", see here. --Drieakko 19:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
After giving this some more thought, and as we are writing an encyclopedia here, the English word "Lapland" has basically two meanings:
a) The Province and Region of Lapland in Finland. This is the only area whose official English name is "Lapland". This name is also extensively used by the Finnish travel industry in the same meaning.
b) In addition to this, Swedish travel industry extensively uses the English word "Lapland" as an unofficial name for the northern part of Sweden, around and north of the Polar Circle. Furthermore, Norwegian travel industry uses the name "Lapland" sometimes for the similar part of Norway.
Skipping all kinds of historical non-English names, the English word "Lapland" does not apply to any other thing, as far as I know. As no instance is officially using it to indicate the Sami area, least the Sami people themselves, I'd truly recommend separating Sapmi and Lapland articles from each other. Kindly correct me if I was in error. --Drieakko 21:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggesting that we add the following disclaimers to the top of the article:

This page is about the general region in northern Fennoscandia. For the Finnish province of the same name, see Lapland Province.
Not to be confused with Sapmi .

How'd that be? --Drieakko 06:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

About Norwegian Lapland; This is the first time I heard about that term. I guess the Norwegian ministry of tourism is trying to benefit from the very well marketed Finnish Lapland concept :)
About splitting the article; is there really a non-Sami Lapland region? At least in Northern Norway I don't think many people identify themselves to belong to such a region (this is also true for non-Sami people not identifying themselves to live in Sapmi/Lapland). So in my opinion there is nothing to split, we only need to agree on the name of the article (Lapland or Sampi).
About the disclaimer; I would oppose that since this article should be about Sapmi (and there does not seem to be consensus to rename this article from Lapland to Sapmi.
About the names sub-section. Could we structure it as follows: Lapland, Sameland and Sapmi are english words used for the area today... Eariler names for the region were...Placenames in multiple languages... Many placenames in Finland, Sweden, Russia start with Lapp...placenames in Norway with Finn...Lappi also used for other purposes. I assume this would give the reader information about what names she is likely to encounter today and in eralier texts, and provide insight about how place names in the region indicate a Sami presence. Labongo 14:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the Finnish Lapland (the only official Lapland) is non-Sami. Population is 95% non-Sami and Sami people live in the sparsely populated northernmost part that has its own special status as the Sami Domicile Area, covering some 25% of Lapland. The Finnish Sami area is practically never refered to as "Lapland" in English, even though Sami people are effectively used in travel advertisements, along with the Santa Claus and ski resorts.
Regarding the usage of the word Lapland, some Google hits:
  • "Finnish Lapland" gives 159 000 hits
  • "Swedish Lapland" gives 119 000 hits
  • "Russian Lapland" gives 842 hits ("Murmansk Region" gives 141 000 hits)
  • "Norwegian Lapland" gives 794 hits ("Finnmark" gives 6 150 000 hits, "Northern Norway" 600 000 hits)
In my opinion, this quite clearly indicates that the usage of the English word "Lapland" to mean anything else than areas in Sweden and Finland is practically non-existent. This is especially noteworthy since most of the Sami people live in Norway, but the term "Lapland" is not in general usage about the Norwegian Sami area at all. Thus it is difficult to conclude that the English word "Lapland" would be a common English term for the Sami area when it is mostly used for the area with the least Sami people of the three Fennoscandian countries. The same goes to Kola Peninsula's Murmansk Region ("Russian Lapland") - it is very rarely recognized as "Lapland" in English media.
So while we have an official Province of Lapland in Finland, the unofficial usage of the English word is common for the Swedish northern region as well, mainly because of the well-thriving local travel industry. This, like Labongo pointed out, has occasionally lured the neighbours to use the name "Lapland" for their respective areas in the north, but this has remained marginal and seems to be purely commercial.
I would conclude that "Lapland" and "Sapmi" are in my opinion two different terms today and would require two different articles. --Drieakko 20:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The official Internet site of the Norwegian Sami parliament www.samediggi.no uses the word "Lapland" zero times on its English pages. --Drieakko 21:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Drieakko, I agree with you that Lapland and Sapmi are two different terms at least in Norway (and non-tourism english documents produced in Norway). Unfortunately, the Oxford english dictionary and Ante Aikio do not agree with us. Hopefully given enough time both will change their mind :)
About your suggested split. What do you intend to put in the non-Sami Lapland article? And how will it differ from the Lappi article?Labongo 21:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
After thinking this I see no other logical solution than to redirect "Lapland" to "Lapland Province" since it is the only region whose official English name is Lapland. We surely need a Lapland disambiguation page to go through related usage, especially due wide misusage of the name Lapland by the travel industry, but as this is an encyclopedia, we should primarily stick to official meanings. I also think that any division of content between articles Sami people and Sapmi (if such article is created) would be artificial and all content should be in the Sami people article. --Drieakko 10:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sami flag

While thinking the content of this article, I came to realize that the Sami flag is the flag of the Sami people, not of the Sami land. Thus it should be moved to the article about Sami people. Also, the section "People" in this article is strange here since it clearly belongs to the article Sami people as well. Comments? --Drieakko 06:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the flag is for the Sami nation. I have renamed People to Demographics.user-Quarl">—Labongo
The "demographics" of Lapland should surely include all other peoples as well. The current section discusses how many Sami people there are in different countries, and such clearly belongs to the Sami people article. The Sami flag is usable to indicate Sami people where ever they are and is in no way attached to the Lapland region. Thus its proper place is in the Sami people article as well. --Drieakko 10:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization

So, listing main points I have for the reorganization:

  • Redirect "Lapland" to "Lapland Province" since that is the only area whose official English name is Lapland. At the end of the day, that is just a clear fact.
  • Move Sami specific parts (people, flag, conflicts) of the current Lapland article to Sami people. I see little reason to split that between Sapmi and Sami people.
  • Redirect "Sapmi" to "Sami people". Note that the word "Sápmi" means also Sami people.
  • Create "Lapland (disambiguation)" page where Lapland related terms may be handled, especially "Swedish Lapland", "Norwegian Lapland" (Finnmark) and "Russian Lapland" (Murmansk_Oblast), as well as "Lappmarken" and "Laponia (historical province)". We could also create a new article for "Lapland (tourism)". --Drieakko 10:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
After giving it some thought and looking at for example how the Cherokee article is organized I also believe most parts of this article can be moved to "Sami People". However, there should still be a short article about Sapmi since it is a concept of its own.Labongo 12:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Please check if the article "Sapmi" looks now like something we are looking for. --Drieakko 09:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Drieakkio, I moved two sections from this article to Sami people. When the Demographics section is also moved this article starts to look like the start of the Lapland/Sapmi article I am aiming for. That is, an article about the Sami cultural region, its history, and all its inhabitants. I guess the Sapmi article is OK just as a link page. But I was not aware that Sapmi also means Sami people. Labongo 10:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I am still wondering the administrative divisions as well. If we are talking about the divisions of Sápmi, they are traditionally the following:
  • Eastern Sápmi (Kola peninsula, eastern Norway and Finland Sami regions)
  • Northern Sápmi (most of Norway and Finland Sami area, northern part of Swedish Sami area)
  • Luleå Sápmi (Luleå river valley area)
  • Southern Sápmi (southern Sweden and Norway Sami area)
whereas we now have in the article the list of different official regions from different states listing their Sami populations, which in my opinion is a matter of the Sami people article. However, the breakdown of Sápmi to four main regions overlaps the division of Sami people and could just as well be in the Sami people article. --Drieakko 11:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I would put the following content in the "Lapland" article and move the current article to "Sapmi (area)":
Lapland can refer to:
Lapland may also refer to:
Other related terms include:
--Drieakko 12:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds great. I would do it myself, but I would prefer not having to manually change all the links to this article. Perhaps there exist a tool that can do this?
PS! I think the content should be moved to Sápmi, which is the official spelling of the word.Labongo 12:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Carried out the changes now. Please check that it is all fine now. --Drieakko 05:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lapland

Lapland is a northern region of eastern Europe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.182.202.226 (talk) 17:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Name

Why isn't this article at Sápmi? /81.170.235.234 14:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Sápmi can also refer to the theme park in Karasjok [1] (that was stupidly enough allowed to use that name).Labongo 09:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)