Talk:Russian-Circassian War

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[edit] Historians

I am in the process of contacting a historian who is an expert on the subject, and inviting them to have a look at and hopefully help edit this article. SGGH 14:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Have contacted 2 authors of articles from which this articles information is drawn. SGGH 20:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Alas, no response. SGGH 17:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of incorrectness in the artical. Circassian War = Caucasian War that i the same event. It is extremely wrong to call it Circassian War.
Not according to my sources, the caucasian war was a much larger area and began halfway through the hostilities between circassia and russia specifically. The occupation of circassia began about 60 years prior to the caucasian war, but became part of it after the latter began. Please sign your posts. SGGH 12:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
also please see the peer review (linked to above) where this issue was discussed SGGH 12:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, i see your point. But in that case, the article should be rewritten. At least the box with the Leaders should be, because Imam Shamil was a Caucasian Leader, not Circassian, who were lead by Muhammad-Emin (An ethnic Chechen Naib). Almansur.shishan 01:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

In the (MAJOR) Leaders bar, should be Sheih Mansur (first leader to unite Caucasians), Gazi Muhammad (First Imam), Imam Shamil (His Successor), Muhammad Emin(Naib of Circassians), Baysangur Benoevskiy.


Also a list of Naibs could be introduced.

Please sign your posts SGGH 07:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination

The Good article nomination has passed but please expand the references that is all I ask, cheers. Lakers 04:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shenfield Refs

There are several separate refs to Shenfield, but without page nos. You may wish to consider either adding the individual page nos, or using ref name=" " to make them a single ref. Winklethorpe (talk) 20:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is one long article with no pages numbers, but i will ref name them (probably tomorrow at this rate) SGGH 21:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I did it, didn't take as long as I expected. I think I have them all. SGGH 21:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
OK. If it's an article, you may wish to include the journal/magazine/etc it was published in in the reference, otherwise others will find it difficult to track down.
In the references section, you've created "printed" and "website" headings, and done 2 columns. On my screen (and others may vary), my first reaction was that it looks like "printed" is Annual Register to Baddeley, and websites is "A collection of cited reports" onwards, including Butkov to Shenfield. Maybe you can persuade wiki to put a blank line or something between the two, so it's clear that each section splits over 2 columns? A minor note: how about a "see also" section. Winklethorpe (talk) 08:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not 100% sure with the html coding but i will try a couple of div's between the two. I will also find where the article was published for you. I have a feeling there is a website link that has it on also, if that is the case I'll move it to the website section. SGGH 08:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Done! SGGH 08:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor detail (River Sochi)

"Russian forces engaged the Circassian army in the estuary of River Sochi"

Is that the same river as Mzymta River, the main river flowing through Sochi? Shanes 03:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I will recheck the sources, but it seems plausible. SGGH 07:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image Image:Russian-Circassian-War.jpg description

Can the image Image:Russian-Circassian-War.jpg be researched and more information provided in regards to the circumstances surrounding its creation? Maybe during the research a superior quality image can be found as well since it is in the public domain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.244.236.45 (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Objections

I was asked to list some specific objections, so here they are. Most of the article is based upon the only source, "Circassianworld.com", which is not an academic source, to put it mildly. Excuse me for characterising it as anti-Russian drivel on the par with kavkaz.com. For instance, Mr. Kadir Natho claims that exactly 43237 Circassians were "killed or driven away" between 1716 and 1773. Did they hold a census to determine the exact figure of casualties, at the time when even the exact population of Great Britain was uncertain? This is pretty ridiculous. Preference for such "sources" explains the fiercely pro-Circassian perspective of the article. I suggest to remove this particular "source" from the article, if it is to retain a measure of credibility.

1. The article is awfully POV and reads like a banal exercise in Russia-bashing. The lead is heavy with anti-Russian rhetoric, talking about "occupation forces" and "forced expulsion".

2. Why Hadji Murad and Imam Shamil are called commanders of the Circassians? This claim needs to be substantiated.

3. "With some historians citing that up to 4,000,000 civilians perished as a result of the exodus". This is a very strong claim for the lead. I see no need to advertise the inflated figures at the beginning of the article. Why not say: "With some historians citing that no people perished directly as a result of the exodus". What is to "perish as a result of the exodus"? This is a very rare form of lethal disease. - fixed

4. What is "Princedom of Tamatarkha"? What is "Circassian Kasogia"? Since you use the language of East Slavic chronicles, why to talk about "invasion"? Why do you need to mention the 1022 "invasion" between the names of Yermolov (19th century) and Ivan the Terrible (16th century)?

5. It is pathetic to classify an obscure Muslim journal published in Amman as "a greater number of historians", especially as Russian historiography is obviously not taken into account by the authors of this page.

Please don't use terms like 'pathetic'. If you disagree, then fine, and in this case you are right it is very difficult to find sources on this topic, however going out of your way to be derogatory is unacceptable. Thank you. SGGH speak! 13:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

6. Is there no better way to "illustrate" Russian cruelty towards poor innocent Circassians than to refer to the fall of Derbend in Persia during the Russo-Persian War (1804-1813)? Was Azerbaijan (of which Derbend is a historical province) also settled by Circassians at that time?

7. Should we give as much credit to the heavily POV terms like "slaughter" which the text is liberally peppered with? Even in this context, such gems of carefully chosen POV language stand out: "“This time, I am limiting myself on this. In the future, I will have no mercy for the guilty brigands; their villages will be destroyed, properties taken, wives and children will be slaughtered."

But not using the term slaughtered would be mis-quoting... SGGH speak! 14:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

8. Was it a crime for Yermolov to free "the much needed peasant work forces" of "the rebellious lords" or "to encourage the Ingushs and Taugur tribes, who had previously been subjugated by the Circassians, to rise up"? As much of the article is an elaborate exercise in Russophobia, these phrases seem to add to the list of Russian crimes against Circassia's "rebellious lords".

I don't understand what you mean here. The article doesn't say it was a crime, it says that Yermolov freed the workers of these people to discourage them from uprising against the Russian forces. I don't think that statement is an exercise in Russophobia... please explain SGGH speak! 14:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

9. Why should a map of modern Russia (rather than the Russian Empire) be used in the text to illustrate the extent of the conflict?

10. The article lack basic wikification. The key points such as Derbent and Anapa are not wikilinked. This leads to absurd situations, notably the third passage of "Invasion of western Circassia" section, where they confuse two different sieges of Anapa, which happened during Russo-Turkish War (1806–1812) and Russo-Turkish War (1828–1829) (the authors of the article fail to distinguish between these conflicts).

11. The religious background of the conflict is so obfuscated that a casual reader may not understand what "holy war" which is supposed to "draw support from other nations" stands for. This is, basically, the same kind of war that Al-Qaeda now leads. The Russo-Circassian conflict was just one stage in the ancient conflict of Christianity and Islam. If enough prominence is given to the "foreign support" to Circassians, then perhaps we shall understand why "Circassia and Turkey united in resisting the Russians", which remains inexplicable in the current version of the article.

12. There is a passing mention of the brave mountaineers being "portrayed by Russian propaganda as savages in a possible attempt to curry favour from the international community". Certainly the Circassian heroine of Pushkin's "Prisoner of the Caucasus" conforms to the "noble savage" type, but to describe it as propaganda?? Fortunately, the authors of the article ignore the existence of this signal masterpiece. Did Russia really need to "curry favour from the international community"? There was no Freedom House and United Nations at that time. Who were illiterate Muslim mountain-dwellers but "savages" for a British lord of the Victorian period? Was there a fitter description of them?

13. There is no proportion in the article. After very brief description of the early stages of the conflict (the Cossacks resettled from Ukraine are briefly mentioned as "Russian occupation forces", although they did not speak Russian) - we suddenly plunge into minute detail during description of the clashes in the estuary of the Sochi river in 1838. It's not clear why this minor engagement should be given so much prominence: "it was not until 5.00 in the afternoon that the Circassians were beaten back... the landing had begun at 10.00 that morning...", etc.

Well the Sochi river is a good example of a military upset, one of the few that Russia seemed to have, but i was torn as to what kind of things to include to give the article some detail. Again a lack of NPOV sources. SGGH speak! 14:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

14. Who is "Russian Tsesarevich Alexander III of Russia"? It's just like speaking about "British Prince of Wales Charles III of Great Britain". Fixed SGGH speak! 13:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

15. Throughout the article, we are told that the Circissians were "forced" to flee. For instance: "Yevdokimov was tasked with forcing the remaining Circassian inhabitants to relocate outside of the region". This is a very strange turn of phrase. How were they "forced" to depart? Why did the Abkhazi population choose to remain in situ, as did the Chechens? "The remaining Ubykhs were killed or forced to flee into the Ottoman Empire". All of them were killed? For what I know, only 52 families of the Ubykhs remained in Russia after the voluntary "exodus". Nobody "killed" or "slaughered" them; they survived in peace well into the 20th century.

Well then please alter the article and cite what you know. I don't know it, and I can't find anything about it despite working on this article since October. SGGH speak! 14:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

16. The last passage indicates the level of scholarship involved into writing the article. "According to historians who support the concept of a Circassian genocide..." - but what about the opposite point of view? It is not mentioned in the article even once. According to the 2002 Russian census, there are 713,000 Circassians living in Russia. Therefore the claim that 90% of them live abroad may be sourced only by such books as "The Circassians: A Forgotten Genocide?". Oh, but the greatest suprise comes with the last sentence: "the remaining Circassians (the Abkhaz tribes)". So Abkhazia was also involved into the war and the Abkhazi are just one "tribe" of Great Circassia? This is a whole new perspective on the war!

17. No attempt is made to analyze why the conflict dragged for over a century (if it really did, which is a moot point). What about the brutal tactics used by mountaineers? Have you ever heard about that? Were all those stories about hostage-taking real or just another invention of "Russian propaganda"? This needs to be addressed.

Again, I will not accept that kind of personal attack. You need to keep your anger in check before you start chucking accusations like that around. You can delist the article, re-write all you want, if its for the better of wikipedia then I'm all for it, but again I won't be attacked in such an aggressive way. SGGH speak! 13:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

18. Things should be placed in comparative perspective. Let's compare the colonisation of the Northern Caucasus by Russians to the colonisation of the Northern America by the English. Let's compare the numbers of indigenous people who "perished" as a result, etc. This conflict was not a unique episode in 19th-century history, as you probably know. As there are no parallels presented, it looks like another (and rather trivial) Black legend.

I hope to find time to work on the article this weekend. --Ghirla-трёп- 18:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have made points alongside yours in a few places. You have to keep in mind that I don't know very much about the topic, I have little to no access to any sources, and the article had, since October, had an expert needed tag on it. It is a shame you have only noticed the article now, instead of when it was being built, but I did my best with what I had to work with I hope you appreciate that. SGGH speak! 14:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Shouldn't it be the Russo-Circassian War? Gatoclass 07:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

There are references to the term Russo-Circassian War however Russian-Circassian seems to be the more predominant, it's a little like English-French wars or Anglo-Frank wars, I think. SGGH speak! 12:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More objections

The title of the entry should be changed to Russian-Circassian Wars: there was not a continuous war, rather a series of related wars fought over the course of a century. The start of the "Previous hostilites" section is laughable. If I go and read the entry for Napoleonic Wars, would I expect to see a reference to French-English "previous hostilities" at the Battle of Hastings? And why has the fact that the territory of the Caucasus formed part of the Ottoman Empire been entirely ommitted (as is the fact that most of the wars were fought within the context of a wider conflict between Russia and the Ottoman Empire)? Meowy 19:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Be Bold SGGH speak! 11:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caucasus War

I notice this page is huge compared to the page of the Caucasus War, even though it only details a part of the Caucasus War. Commanders like Sheikh Mansur did fight in the Caucasus War but not in Circassia I think. Same as Imam Shamil who was from Dagestan. Shouldn't a lot of this be integrated into the Caucasus War page? - PietervHuis (talk) 17:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prince Sviatoslav

It seems curious to find out from this article that Prince Sviatoslav (1027-1076), invaded Circassia in 985. Maybe somebody can check the sources and correct this error. The citation needed tag from the lead should be removed also. --Eurocopter (talk) 09:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)