Talk:Russia Today TV

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Russia Portal This page is within the scope of WikiProject Russia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received an importance rating on the assessment scale.

Society Portal This article is part of WikiProject Media, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to media. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

This article is part of WikiProject Television Stations, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Television stations. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

new channel, pretty reporters, mix of Eastern European and British accents

The idiots at RussianToday (the newspaper/magazine) think that this great channel is putin-powered. I think their just jealous. This channel is great.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Logo rttv.jpg

Image:Logo rttv.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 06:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brief description of notable controversies in the lead

User Russavia has removed a paragraph from the lead with the message "Removed entire "breathless cheerleader" section in lead - it is NPOV, and 3 sources do not support the synthesis raised - take it to talk page", so I have taken it to the talk page. The paragraph is NPOV because it balances Russia Today's view as being an alternative to the "Anglophone point of view on international news" with critics of Russia Today TV's neutrality. Russavia also asserts that the sources do not actually claim that Russia Today TV is a "breathless cheerleader" for the Kremlin and that it is synthesis. As such I have provided a quote from the sources (actually 4) here exactly in context.

“	Kasparov, a former world chess champion, is a fierce opponent of Putin. Kasyanov, a former prime minister, was barred from running in the March 2 presidential election. "That's just bad, bad PR, and I'd add bad politics . . . for which no Ketchum contract, television network or foundation money can compensate," McFaul said. Russia Today, a news channel set up in April 2005, is broadcasting in English and Arabic and planning to expand into Spanish. At first glance it looks a lot like CNN, but it can be a breathless cheerleader for the Kremlin. Nikonov, of the new grant-making group, called the channel "too amateurish" and spoke dismissively of many of the other efforts: "Sometimes people spend a lot of money on nonsense." The editor in chief of Russia Today would not agree to an interview without the right to approve all of her quotes, the channel's press office said. The Washington Post declined to accept those terms.	”
—Peter Finn, The Washington Post

Thrilltalk 03:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

paragraph: However, criticism has been raised against Russia Today for being a "breathless cheerleader" for the Kremlin[4] and for being to much "in the hands" of the Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin.[3][5][6][7]

relevant quotes from sources:

"At first glance [Russia Today] looks a lot like CNN, but it can be a breathless cheerleader for the Kremlin."

The channel’s roots in the Kremlin staff, including the president’s briefer Alexey Gromov and the president’s advisor Mikhail Lesin were spotted off-the-record.

Dmitry Peskov, who is Gromov’s first deputy, confirmed to Kommersant “the idea of Russia Today was backed up and understood in the staff of the president.”

Besides, the channel’s founder is the state-run RIA Novosti and its funding is effected for the state budget’s account ($30 million for 2005).

RIA-Novosti created Russia Today with the aim of presenting the government's view on news about Russia

The Kremlin is already spending millions of dollars on the English-language satellite news channel “Russia Today.”

several analysts say [Russia Today] will amount to nothing more than Kremlin propaganda.

Unless anyone can prove how these quote do not support the paragraph, I'm reinstating the paragraph again. ASN (talk) 13:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's all that important. Western media preaching to Russia about not being enough like the west, what else is new? I think we should be more concerned with facts rather than opinions, after all this is an encyclopedia. It's kind of like music and movie reviews, if someone wants to find out about it, they can just watch it and make up their own mind (it's even free). I don't see why you would be so hard pressed to put preconceived notions into readers heads using other peoples opinions. I don't think the general public is so stupid as to need an "expert" to tell them whether or not something is propaganda, and in an ironic twist, that could be seen as propaganda in of itself. Nevertheless, I left the criticism in, and added some additional information to balance it. However personally I think the paragraph should be removed completely. LokiiT (talk) 12:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Opinions do matter, and should be included, even if they do not sound new to you. It's important to know what has been said about any topic, from all sides. Even movies pages have "reaction" section which summarizes opinion about the the movie. ASN (talk) 06:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

One sided opinions do not belong in the intro, please see WP:NPOV. When someone comes to this article, by no means should they be reading negative opinions before all else. That is ridiculous. Look at the BBC, CNN, CBC and Al-Jazeera articles. Criticism does not go in the intro. There is no self praise in the intro either, please quote what you're talking about, all I see is facts, stats and objectives. If it's going to be a problem, maybe we should just delete all opinions like I suggested earlier.

And further, that kommersant article doesn't criticize Russia Today at any point, please re-read it. Only western media has criticized it. LokiiT (talk) 07:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

there were both sides represented in the intro: critique about channel's affiliation to kremlin, and opposing statement from editors about their editorial independence. not much difference from what is at Fox_News_Channel, where criticism does go into intro. ASN (talk) 09:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

What is an opinion other than one-sided? WP:NPOV says to present all significant points of view, not none. Criticism does have a place in the introduction, from WP:LEAD

The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources. The lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at but not explaining important facts that will appear later in the article. It should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style so as to invite a reading of the full article.

It does not matter whether the criticism comes from someone "Western" or "Eastern", all that matters is that it is reliable. Thrilltalk 08:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So would you prefer we move the entire criticism section back to the lead? Because it's certainly not neutral to just have negative points. The only reason I moved it in the first place was because it was getting too big. (Read what WP:LEAD says about length compared to article size, 4 paragraphs is too big. This article is 11,000 characters, so its lead should be 1 or 2 paragraphs.) And I think it is important to note that it's western media criticizing, the topic of Russia and media freedom is a touchy topic indeed when it comes to western media. LokiiT (talk) 08:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ideally, yes, because the criticism was brief (1 sentence) and well sourced, it was designed for a lead. The response to the criticism in the criticism section could be compressed to one sentence also, something like "Russia Today TV and the Russian Federal Press and Mass Communications Agency deny this."

The lead-to-article length relationship is a problem, but I think this is something that cannot be cut out of the lead for space reasons. The best solution would be to keep this in the lead and add a more detailed account in an existing or new section (not a criticism section, Wikipedia policy discourages criticism sections). Copying the criticism section verbatim would still leave some weight issues to be resolved.

A possible "third way" would be to compress the criticism stuff like one would for the lead and integrate it with the article without mentioning anything in the lead. This would be less helpful to readers, but marginally better than a criticism section. Thrilltalk 18:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The main problem with criticism sections is that they become "troll magnets", so to speak, where people just list endless amounts of criticism in what becomes an unfair POV attack against the subject. I think given the size, popularity and subject matter of this article, we shouldn't have any such problems. If it does become a problem I would be for removing the section and incorporating the criticism more evenly into the article, but for now I think the section is fine.

And again I must point out the fact that there are no other media broadcasting articles that include criticism in their leads, despite most of them having significant amounts of criticism in the rest of the article. I don't think we should hold double standards. Policies like what to include in the lead need to be looked at with common sense. We're talking about opinions on a media broadcasting station, not intellectual scrutiny over some sort of scientific theory or otherwise factually controversial topic. LokiiT (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't advocating a criticism section. I was advocating integration of the criticism. I also will say there are other media broadcasting articles with criticism in their leads, Fox News Channel comes to mind. Criticism is always opinion, and the lead policy makes good sense. The lead section should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. To force the reader to dig through mounds of text before learning about connections that could compromise RTT's journalistic integrity would be a disservice to the reader and more public relations than encyclopedic. Thrilltalk 16:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jamestown Foundation

I would imagine that we can find more credible critics to cite than the Jamestown Foundation. They are extremely critical of nearly every aspect of present-day Russia. They are not comparably critical of other countries with similar problems. I'd really suggest that we would do better to cite criticism from international human rights groups with more of a history of even-handed criticism of propaganda and censorship. - Jmabel | Talk 23:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you source some of this criticism of Jamestown from reliable sources? Thrilltalk 00:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This discussion should be taken to Wikipedia:RSN ASN (talk) 06:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not in the habit of having to source my talk page remarks, but I'll see what I can find. My point is, though, that I think we can find similar criticisms made by sources that have more credibility. - Jmabel | Talk 17:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that even a cursory reading of our own article Jamestown Foundation makes it abundantly clear that this is largely a neoconservative organization. I'm not saying that means they are reckless with facts - from what I can see, they are more responsible than many who share their politics - but this really is as if (to take an example from someone on the other end of the political spectrum) we had our criticisms of something drawn mainly from The Nation. It's not a bad source, and I'd trust them on facts (though not always on the big picture), but there are probably better - and, specifically, more credible - sources on this topic. - Jmabel | Talk 17:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The link isn't necessary anyways. There are enough links supporting that paragraph. Why so much controversy over something that most readers will never even notice? For the record though I agree that Jamestown is pretty anti-Russian. You'd be hard pressed to find anything positive about Russia in one of their articles, at least that doesn't end up being a back handed compliment. LokiiT (talk) 22:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)