Talk:Runway

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[edit] Removal of Worldview and Citation tags

I am removing the worldview and citation tags from the main article. The article cites the FAR/AIM and the AFD, which contain the relevant information for runway markings. Further, the worldview tag is N/A because there is no subjectivity in aviation. The ICAO regulates international aviation and all countries have agreed to its standards. Runway markings are the same everywhere in the world, so it is not necessary to gather "opinion" from multicultural sources. Any authoritative source, such as the AIM or AFD, is going to have identical information to its international equivalent. Ehidle 18:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


Agreed. With the inclusion of meters in parentheses, and the fact that all figures are given in ICAO compliant units, the article is as worldview compliant as ICAO aviation itself. The FAR/AIM is definitely as authoritative a source as can be cited, so the citation tag is not necessary. If someone would like to add non-US sources, that would be welcome, but the citation tag is not needed. Rvbuilder 18:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Runway lengths comparison

A scale / length-line of runway lengths would be interesting, including typical, min and max for landing small, private jets, large, space shuttle, etc. -GregU

Not as easy as you might think. In addition to the myriad aircraft types, there are other variables, such as aircraft weight (within the same type), temperature, altitude, wind, etc. In my edit in the article I touched on several examples of length required vs aircraft type—some I know from experience, some I can give an educated guess.
For example, VBG (Vandenberg AFB), EDW (Edwards AFB), and TTS (Shuttle Landing Site at Kennedy) all have 15,000 ft of pavement. I don't know the actual requirement of the shuttle, but from what I know of other large aircraft, plus the fact that the shuttle has limited aerodynamic braking (split rudder), limited drag (parachute is small and only deployed for a short time), well known limited wheel braking capability, no reverse engine thrust, landing weight in excess of 100,000 lbs, exceptionally high landing speed (well over 150 kts), it would be no surprise to me to learn that it needs a healthy percentage of that 15,000 ft.
Generally speaking, the shuttle is probably the only aircraft for which landing length is the more important consideration. Most aircraft can land on runways too short to take off from.
But, to summarize for you (but not worth trying to put in the article), small, single engine aircraft can, at sea level, probably comfortably work in and out of a 1,000 ft runway. Even some light twins could do that.
As you move up to medium (turbo prop) twins, such as King Airs, you'd probably want to double that for routine operations.
Small business jets would probably need 3,000 ft for regular operations.
Large business jets on up to jetliners weighing on the order of 250,000 lbs or less will pretty much need 6,000 ft or so.
Heavy jets (those weighing 300,000 lbs or more) almost certainly need at least 8,000 ft or more.
But it depends. I once saw a Korean Airlines 747 use every bit of Runway 32R (13,000 ft) at ORD one day, obviously with a full load of fuel on its way to Seoul. Similarly, I saw a Northwest Airlines 747 use every bit of Runway 32L (10,000 ft), and blew a couple of tires landing, inbound from Narita (Tokyo).
I've seen a 747 go in and out of FLL (Ft. Lauderdale—9,000 ft of runway), and MDW (Chicago Midway) handles everything but the heavies with 6,500 ft. That's quite a range.
But none of that is cast in stone. On a snowy day at MDW a 737 might not be able to get it stopped (witness last month). If KAL hadn't had 32R to use at ORD, they wouldn't have been able to go with a non-stop fuel load—they'd had to load partial fuel and stop at ANC (Anchorage), or if it had been 10° warmer, even 32R wouldn't have been long enough.
I hope that addresses some of your thoughts. 216.76.216.195 06:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Good piece of information and thanks for this detailed explanation. But you should have left your identitiy in this page, instead of leaving an automatically generated IP address. Guess you work in an airport.

SPJ June 20, 2006

[edit] Metric measurements

Many readers now understand metric measurements more easily than imperial ones (if they really understand the latter at all!) so it would be nice to have all measurements in feet converted to metres (can anyone, even an American, really visualise 15,000ft? How long is that in miles? in chains? whatever?) The same goes for weights, by the way!

I can easily visualize 15,000 feet — not saying that meters aren't better (since they obviously are), but when you've grown up with imperial measurements, you can visualize them pretty easily. —Cleared as filed. 16:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
What if measurements were listed in both imperial and metric units? It would make the article easy to read for everyone.

The standard measurement for the United States and the FAA is in feet. Put it in both or put it in feet, but this "if they really understand the latter at all!" is narrow and biased. I can visualize 11,800 feet just as easily as I can 36 feet (the length of 1R/19L at Fairbanks International Airport and the width of 18/36 at Galt Airport in Illinois respectively). Mercer5089 17:34 20 July 2006 (CDT)

Is this why there's a "worldwide view" tag at the top of the page? Acdx 19:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Imperial units are still used as a standard in international aviation for many things. Altitude is called out in feet. Distance can be measured in either feet or nautical miles. Speed is in knots (usually, some small planes might still use MPH or KPH). The only people I know who didn't do this was Russia, but since the fall of the Iron Curtain I think even their international pilots had to learn Imperial.

There are some exceptions to this. For instance, weight can be in kilos or pounds, and viability (but not traveling distance) can be in statute miles or kilometers. Barometric pressure units also very from country to country. Same for fluid loadings. But aside from the runway weight loadings section, this article really doesn't address any of those things.

For the layman from a metric country, I can understand putting metric in parenthesis, but its ridiculous to call this a "worldview violation" if its the standard actually used. Kensuke Aida 19:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The ICAO standard is to use units of feet for runway measurement. See Annex 5 of the ICAO International Aviation Standards publication. There is no validity in arguing that this article is not "worldview" compliant. There is only one "view" applicable to aviation, and that is the "ICAO view" which says that runways and altitude are measured in feet, travel distance is measured in nautical miles, visibility is measured in statute miles, airspeed and windspeed are measured in knots, force and weight are measured in pounds, and English is the official language of Air Traffic Control. ehidle 68.44.13.149 15:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sections of a runway

This page should probably have information on "sections" of the runway. For example, I added blast pad. - Noclip 15:52, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Numbers assigned to runways

Can anyone please clarify how the number of a runway is determined, when the landing is from opposite direction? The mail article says "Each runway can be used in either direction, and hence has two numbers. Runway One Zero becomes Runway Two Eight when used in the opposite direction". How is this done? 360-100 is 260 that is it would be runway 26. Penguin s 10:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Your method of calculation (at least the one I think you're using) is not correct. It gets you two runways, one from east to west and the other west to east, but both either from south to north or north to south (try your method on runway 18 or 17 to see how it fails). You should add 18 (for 180 degrees) mod 36 to get the other direction of the runway.

Can you please clarify in simple terms how to calculate the runway numbers? My method is wrong, I know. Penguni_S 24 July 2006

I've tried to make the article a bit clearer. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 10:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Runways are given a number corresponding to their magnetic heading. There are always two runways for a given strip, 180-degrees apart. The least significant digit is not used. For example, KLOM has runways 6 and 24, corresponding to magnetic headings of 60 and 240, respectively. ehidle 68.44.13.149 15:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It can also be the heading in degrees true. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 17:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
No, runway headings are always magnetic. The runway number is determined by rounding the magnetic heading to the nearest 10 and dropping the least significant digit. A runway with magnetic heading 267 and true heading 262 would be marked as runway 27, not 26. Rvbuilder 18:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The article states: 'Runways are generally numbered according to the approach direction'. I can imagine that readers could interpret this as that runway 09 would be the runway where the planes approach from the east, which would obviously be wrong. I suggest discribing is as the 'departure direction'.

I changed it now to use the word "heading". Does it look a bit clearer? Also to Rvbuilder, some runways in the arctic are in degrees true. It's mentioned in the article and can be seen here. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 09:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Candidate for the "longest runways" section

One of the runways at Gromov Flight Research Institute/Zhukovsky Air Base has a length of (at least) 5 kilometres and would easily get into that section. Some data can be found at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/zhukovsky.htm.

  • How about Area 51? One of its runways is over 20,000 ft. long. However I believe much of that is on the dry lake bed and much of the length is deactivated do to it not being needed, - Mohaas05

[edit] Error in lengths? (in section: Runway Markings)

Could someone knowledgable proofread and correct the following passage in the Notes subsection of the Runway markings section? The given feet (175) do not correspond to the given meters (270):

  • If a runway has Precision markings on both ends, touchdown zones within 175 ft/270 m of the midpoint are omitted, to avoid pilot confusion over which end the marking belongs to.

If it is supposed to be 175 feet, then it should be 53 meters, not 270. --Mareklug talk 20:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Fixed: 900 ft/270 m, per: 2-3-3 e. Runway Markings, in http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap2/aim0203.htm --Mareklug talk 03:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How is runway angle assigned?

I'm creating an article about an airport, and the sources say the angle is 02°. But another airports runway have number like 06/28, 36/18 etc and i dont understand how I can assign the angle for the airport I'm writing. can anyone tell me? Nielswik 12:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Answered on user page. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ice runway

Just found this interesting page: Runway of Williams Field 217.86.40.254 23:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Non-precision runways

This section needs something else but I just can't think what. When it refers to Radio beacons is it saying that the minimum required is an Non-directional beacon? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually the nondirectional beacon is probably the simplest and the oldest system used today and because of that it may be considered as "minimum".
Any system used must be recognized by FAA, an aircraft must be equipped to handle it and approach plates must be issued for approach.
There is quite a number of equipment used today for non-precision approach and i suggest that "etc." may be quite useful. Not that I'm lazy, but non-instrument or instrument approach deserve for separate articles.
Slawomir123 07:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Slawomir123
Thanks. That's what I thought. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lighting

I think this article is a bit vague on the details of runway lighting, considering how important this is. For instance, I think (I'll need to confirm it) that runway lights can be turned on by the pilot clicking his radio button, or by requesting it from ATC. Also, some airports don't have that center light line down the runway. And some more details about the lighting at the end of the runway that tells you if you're at the proper approach altitude. Does anyone have anymore details? Thanks. 66.129.5.5 03:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yest, the runway/taxiway lights may be turned on by a pilot at some airports and no, the ATC is unable to operate these lights.
Time permitting I'll try to add something on these lights, but the bottom line is contained in Aeronautical Information Manual (see references to the article.
Slawomir123 07:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Slawomir123

[edit] 5 403 m runway

Yes, LII is not an airport, but airfield (though nowadays it is used as a cargo airport), but it has 5,403 m runway. Would we add it? --Yuriy Lapitskiy 17:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Runway surfaces: sod vs grass

I noticed that this article talks about "sod" as a surface, and that the Runway infoboxes refer to "sod" and "grass" as surfaces. Are the two terms interchangeable when it comes to runways? --Zippy 22:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Not always. Grass could be just the natural growing field that a guy uses for his own private aircraft (And his own use). On the other hand sod could mean that it's a smaller private airfield that may have a lot of users who have had the sod laid down to provide a better surface. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 09:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Runway "09" Sample Runway

The runway used as a sample to explain the different parts of a runway is labeled "09," but I believe all runways under 100 magnetic are painted with one number only. So a runway of 070 degrees is written and called runway "7." --Matt 15:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no. If you look at Runway#Orientation and dimensions (2nd paragraph) it explains that while most US aiports do drop the leading "0", some such as Edwards Air Force Base do include it. Also airports in the rest of the world use the leading "0". Of course some runways, such as gravel or grass, may have no markings at all. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 21:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

More USA-centric stuff on Wikipedia.... surprise surprise. The markings for that runway are to FAA standards (save the runway number), the ones in Europe are a fair bit different and perhaps it is worthwhile inserting another diagram to illustrate a stereotypical European layout (I know there are minor variations from nation to nation). Then that zero that is so annoying our American cousins can be removed... (Talk) 14:44, 18 January 2008 (GMT)

[edit] Fixed distance marks

One of the graphics of the runway contains the element marking with an arrow pointing to it, and a caption "Fixed distance marks", but searching the body of the article fails to reveal any reference to this. I don't think there's a description using other words, is there? --Mareklug talk 04:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Removed tag for cleanup

 This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.
Please improve this article if you can. (March 2007)

I removed this very old cleanup tag because the article seems well organized, well edited and "cleaned-up". I put it here in case others do not agree.--Markisgreen (talk) 14:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)