Talk:Rule of thumb
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The following statement is incorrect and was removed from the article...it is also somewhat irrelevant:
- For most people, the crooked thumb held out at arm's length subtends an angle to the horizon roughly equal to one hour of time - in other words if the distance of the sun is a thumb's length (from tip to first joint) above the horizon, it is about one hour until sunset.
The thumb segment subtends an angle of approximately 3 degrees, and the sun travels this distance in 12 minutes, not an hour as incorrectly stated.
[edit] real etymology?
if it doesn't come from the wife-beating thing, where does it come from? Gkhan 08:17, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] spousal rape
I was just about to suggest that someone link this with spousal rape since they both have to do with archaic rituals concerning a man's rights over his wife. Are we certain this is an urban legend? Anyone else have an idea about its etymology?--Reverend Distopia 21:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is little doubt that the connection between wife beating and the term "rule of thumb" is mythical. The term is not referred to in Blackstones treatise on english common law as claimed in a 1982 report on wife abuse for the United States Commission on Civil Rights, Under the Rule of Thumb: Battered Women and the Administration of Justice
Probably the best on line resource for this appears at http://www.debunker.com/texts/ruleofthumb.html which is an excerpt from the Christina Hoff Summers book "Who Stole Feminism"
Material revealing the "Rule of Thumb" myth to be just that is widely available and a respectable information source such as Wikipedia ought not proffer obvious myths as reality
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22rule+of+thumb%22 DrDamage 15 May 2005
[edit] Removed the last sentence
Took out the sentence at the end, "Some believe this has nothing to do with the origin, though..." because it's both poorly written (good writers don't use elipses in that way) and doesn't make sense with the rest of the article.
[edit] Whether it's a wiktionary entry or not.
Looks longer than a wiktionary entry to me. See the wiktionary entry, which actually is a dictionary entry, and compare. --rerdavies 03:02, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Length is irrelevant, it's content that counts. Absolutly!!! This article is solely about the meaning and etymology of a phrase, not a concept. If there were actual legal rules of thumb, this would be encyclopedic, talking about them with brief mentions of other uses. But there aren't. It's just about the definition and etymology. —Simetrical (talk) 09:20, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Redarvies. Leon math 21:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Link to Heuristic
Should "heuristic" in the first paragraph point directly to "heuristic (computer science)"? I'm not sure. --Hcsteve 07:59, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
No, it shouldn't. The current link is correct. —Simetrical (talk) 06:01, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] etymology from the OED
Some facts from the Oxford English Dictionary:
- Earliest known use was in a book Fencing-Master by Sir W. Hope in 1692: "What he doth, he doth by rule of Thumb, and not by Art".
- In previous centuries, it primarily was used in contrast to scientifically-justified rules (as in the quote above): A rule of thumb was one that seemed to work, but had no theoretical or scientific justification for why it should work.
--Delirium 20:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Brewing etymology
From the article: According to the Discovery Science Channel's TV show, "Discoveries This Week" on 19 September 2005, the term comes from brewery industry before the advent of thermometers. The man in charge of aiding yeast would stick his thumb into the vat to check the temperature. This is doubtful, however, as beer is easily contaminated and ruined by casual contact with unsterilized equipment, much less a thumb.
I have doubts about this as the etymology of the term, but not for the reasons stated above. Although many homebrewers today like to think of their brewing method as more sterile than an operating room, this isn't really necessary. Beer has been brewed a lot longer than bleach and no-rinse sanitizers and indeed long before the role of microorganisms in food spoilage was known. Plunging a clean thumb into wort wouldn't necessarily ruin the batch. However, if the test is to see if the wort is cool enough to add the yeast, this wouldn't work. Heat becomes painful to the skin above at least 125 F, but this temperature would kill almost all of the yeast. Yeast shouldn't be added until the wort is at most 80 F. I fail to see how sticking a thumb into the wort would help one in determining this. Penismightierthanthesword 20:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- It also doesn't make much sense because the phrase is stated to have originated in the very late 17th century, and simple thermometers were commonly available well before that. I think we should take it out, or at least note more strongly in the article that this is very unlikely. Kafziel 22:05, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Major Rewrite
Well, applying the "Be Bold" motto of WP, I went through and tried to reformat this article to regain some clarity in it's content. It seemed (to me at least) that there was alot of conjecture, and confusion especially around the use of this term and possible connections with domestic violence... Understandable that people have strong feelings about that topic, but it was causing more confusion than it was clearing as it stood here.
There was also a mixture of possible and unlikely origins for the term all mashed together - this term (or at least it's use as a measurement technique) has been around for longer than modern laws, so, whether it was used in any laws at a later stage I have strong doubts that that is it's origin.
Feel free to re-add some of the content which I culled, but, in the interests of all, if we can try and keep the division between mis-conceptions regarding it's origin and plausible origins, as well as a chronological order to any references, I think it will keep this article alot clearer. (Before this edit there were a number of references and quotes which all claimed to be the first instance of the term being used).
[edit] Some restorations
The rewrite does bring the focus of the article back to where it should be, but there is reason it got muddled in the first place. There is a significant number of people who believe the term originated in 18th century laws regarding wife beating. Since the rewrite, someone has been repeatedly putting that opinion back in.
It's better that the article contain some facts regarding the connection of the term to domestic violence. I've restored a reference to Del Martin's usage of the term which in all likelihood is the reason for the popularity of the belief (much more so than Boondock Saints). I've also restored the reference to Sharon Fenick who did the legal research on the subject (the rewrite removed Fenick but left Quinion, but Quinion merely quotes Fenick).
[edit] Supreme Court of North Carolina: State v. Richard Oliver, 1874 WL 2346 (N.C.)
In a decision by Judge Settle in 1874:
"We may assume that the old doctrine, that a husband had a right to whip his wife, provided he used a switch no larger than his thumb, is not law in North Carolina." State v. Richard Oliver, 1874 WL 2346 (N.C. 1874).
This 1874 decision clearly overrules the use of the custom. While the practice is certainly not a myth, the usage of the phrase "rule of thumb" would take more research.
Msross78 00:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rm trnaswiki tag
I removed the transwiki tag because I felt it was used inappropriately here. There's a full article here, so the wiktionary link should be enough to alert users that there's also an entry at wiktionary. If you disagree with my action, you can revert me or discuss it here. Peace, delldot | talk 17:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pelvis spacing
I've also heard from an anthropology professor of mine that "rule of thumb" refers to the fact that, regarding the skeletal system, one can stick a thumb in the pelvic bone of a female skeleton and wiggle their thumb whereas with males one cannot. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maika0* (talk • contribs) 23:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Rearranged sections
I have rearranged order of the 'Origins' section. Since no conclusive evidence exist on the origin of the saying I think that simple explanations that derive from common crafts should go before the more elaborate ones. I'm especially sceptical of the fact that Del Martins thesis as of 1976 (that the term comes from a legislation that would restrict/allow wife beating) seems to be the primary explanation of the saying in the article.
[edit] Apocryphal etymology
I am troubled that this page contains more on the "wife-beating" rule of thumb nonsense than the actual origin. I think giving this much attention to the false origin rather than the true one contributes to the popularity of the false story and thus the acceptance of the falsehood as fact. 71.113.247.118 (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
