Talk:Rothschild family

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There are some major inaccuracies in this article - To begin with, how can Amschel Mayor be both the founder of the Rothschild family, having 5 sons, and also BE one of those 5 sons! WHFM

Have started to expand this article and put neutral pov. The earlier links were inappropriate. Requires a lot more work, and careful treatment of how the family members are distinguished and referenced. mervyn 09:37, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] David Icke

Mary Ann Van Hoof supposedly receiving visions from the Virgin Mary telling her that the Rothschilds are "mongrel yids (Jews)" bent on imposing world domination through international banking and the work of their "satanic secret society."[1] She also claims that the Rothschilds and other Jews have subverted the Roman Catholic Church. [2] The British author David Icke has written extensively on this theme.

The above seems to suggest that David Icke also believes in a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. I have read many of Mr Icke's books and have never found any thing either verbatim or pointing towards him being anti Jewish. He does mention the Rothschilds and International banking as a part of the evil and war machine, but no where in his books or films does he say it is because that they are Jewish or any other creed or race.

I suggest that this obvious slander either be removed or formatted differently Orasis 23:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

A simple Google of the words -David Icke Anti Semite- brings a plethora of reliable sources criticising Mr Icke for his anti-semitic views. Many critics feel that the use of the word 'reptile' or 'lizard' in Mr Ickes works is a disguise for the word 'Jew'. Mr Icke has connections to Canadian anti-semitic organisations. Mr Icke, in his book "...and the Truth Will Set you Free", repeatedly endorses The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and asserts its fundamental correctness ('The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' was an anti-semitic hoax, which purports to describe a Jewish plot to achieve world domination). Malbolge 18:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)Malbolge 18:03 GMT, 26 February 2007.

How about trying to actually inform yourself, rather than Googling up a simple search and reading whatever garbage bubbles up. His books are available through the libraries. Believe me, your reliable sources aren't so reliable. And it would seem that their claims rely solely on general ignorance regarding Mr. Icke's work and a willingness to condemn a man without a proper investigation into what he has to say for himself. It begs the question: Why are all these folks so bent on damaging his credibility? And why are there so many apparently educated people willing to jump on the wagon with them when they literally know Jack about the issue at hand? 121.44.194.104 19:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"Why are all these folks so bent on damaging his credibility?" Ickes HAS no credibility outside the paranoid right wing. He never offers verifiable, objective evidence of his claims, not ever, citing only other paranoid right-wingers. And ad hominem attacks on his critics on his behalf only demonstrates your own lack of real ammunition in the debate.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, by the way -- in case you still labor under a misapprehension of their validity -- were demonstrated quite thoroughly several decades ago to have been invented out of whole cloth by Czar Nicholas II's secret police (actually, they subcontracted it out to a second-rate novelist) as a tool to further stir up antisemitism among the Russian Orthodox establishment. The Protocols are still a favorite source for slander among American evangelicals, however (and I can supply about 50 citations to demonstrate that . . .). --Michael K. Smith 17:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
This sourced quote from David Icke pretty much ends any debate on the matter: "At the heart of Icke's theories is the view that the world is ruled by a secret group called the "Global Elite" or "Illuminati," which he has linked to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic hoax.[3][4] In 1999, he published The Biggest Secret, in which he wrote that the Illuminati are a race of reptilian humanoids known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie. [3][5]" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadav1 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC). nadav 18:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
How does that end any debate in the matter? That quote says that he thinks QE2 and W are reptilian humanoids; that doesn't establish whether he's anti-Semitic or not. Since none of the people mentioned in the above list are even Jewish, it shows that he doesn't even necessarily ascribe this hoax, if he does believe in it, to Jewish people! So, how is that somehow implying that he's anti-Semitic? That is a serious charge and, while the passage in question has been reworded, it should not be thrown around on talk pages since this is a living person.--Gloriamarie 15:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories aside, you don't have to wear a tin-foil hat in order to recognize fascism for what it is. Anyone involved with International Investment Banking Restructuring, negotiating corporate mergences and further concentrating power in the corporate hierarchy, is a fascist in every sense of the word. May I suggest as a revision to the article that, as controversy (given the contentious nature of the word fascism), the Rothschilds' familial role in Global Society is one concerned with fascist motivations.

It should also be criticized that by placing any controversial arguments in a category of "conspiracy theory" there arises an issue of semantics and logical fallacy because of a prominent tendency to associate the concept with negative, discrediting connotation. <Simon,UWO>


I'm absolutely certain that you have no idea what the word fascist even means. The reason that it is a contentious term (apart from the historical societies that are defined as being fascist) is that uneducated leftists simply use it to describe people they don't like. I myself am a leftist and the odd and overly cliche usage of the word fascist annoys me to no end. People use it without having any idea what it means, and the usage becomes so broad and vague that it stops meaning anything. The fact that you actualy argue that "anyone involved with International Investment Banking Restructuring, negotiating corporate mergences and further concentrating power in the corporate hierarchy, is a fascist in every sense of the word" merely proves my point. Your argument lacks anything that even resembles an intelligent and coherent point. Part of the problematic nature of the term is the fact that Fascism was a very ill defined political ideology. Mussolini's co-written manifesto not only radically contradicts itself (at one point he called religion a mental illness and then he later called fascism a religion, which I mention as a particularly amusing example) and it fails to form any true and distinct ideological definition. There are vast differences between the three historical fascist regimes (Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, and Franco's Spain), and thus the term becomes even more confusing. There are tendencies, trends and commonalities between the three entities, of course, but there simply isn't anything that emerges as a true fixed ideology. Mussolini, the first Fascist leader and one of the originators of the political movement, defined his beliefs only in terms of what he was opposed to, rather than giving a list of tenants, platforms, and aims. Fascism was defined as being anti-Communism and anti-democracy, but there was little given in the way of what it was exactly. Some of the better definitions that I have gained from various European history classes touch upon its populist nature, its reliance on pageantry, its focus on complete political, economic and cultural control and a strong militaristic principles as being the back bone of society. Fascism has never had anything to do with a so-called 'global society.' In fact one of the common denominators between the Fascist regimes was that they each pronounced extreme nationalism, which is diamemtrically oposed to globalization. What exactly do you mean by 'fascist motivations?' Your terminology makes no sense. And no, International Investment Banking Restructuring and the concentration of corporate power through merges, acquisitions and overall concentration of power has absolutely nothing to do with fascism inherently, in fact no actual fascist movement has ever concerned itself with any of that as a major goal. Sure those governments sought to make money, but all governments seek to maintain their existence. In the case of fascist governments economic success was about perserving a facade of social improvement to maintain its populist appeal and as a means of funding their militaries, which as I said before was of extreme importance. I realize that I have rambled for some time now, but you managed to stumble upon a pet pieve of mine. You have no idea what fascist means and anyone who calls the Rothschild fascist or having fascist motivations has no idea what they are talking about. It absolutely doesn't deserve to be in the article, as it is not an argument that is even worth any amount of attention or consideration. Just because fascism was about social, cultural, political and economic control does not mean corporations are fascist for simply wanting to perpetuate their existence through market dominance. And yes my friend, you don't need a tin-foil hat to see as you do, you just need logic and knowledge that is as flimsy and discardable as tin foil. And you are also right that the term conspiracy theory often taints what is being labled. That is simply because of the fact that, although conspiracies exist, conspiracy theorists often make outlandish and peculiar arguments based on little to no actual quantifiable evidence and they take such enormious and dubious leaps from the evidence they do have that the arguments become absurd. Conspiracy theorists are their own downfall as they all too often burry any valid critiques they may have within a large pile of baseless ultra paranoia and wholly unbelievable narratives of pure speculation. You, unfortunately, are a prime example of why the term 'conpiracy theories' has such a negative connotation.

  • Well the Rothschilds certainly are fascist if you look at the economic perspective of fascism. Even Wikipedia itself talks about one characteristic being "corporatism" or the merging of government and big business. I don't see how someone can disagree that the Rothschild family has been involved with this sort of activity and to be honest I find the motives of those defending the Rothschild family in this matter as SUSPECT. There's a difference between being anti-semitic and an anti-Zionist.* Edited by Fatrb38

[edit] Prominent members

added Baron Ferdinand de Rothschild and decided to remove

as not esp prominent -- AMJR is mentioned unde Victor Rothschild

This article still need lots of work!!! --mervyn 11:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) youre a d bag

[edit] Just why...

...was the Paris branch nationalized? It's mentioned, but not explained.... --Penta 18:44, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Because the Rothschilds were wealthier than the French government.

A total of 39 banks were nationalized under the socialist president Mitterrand. The family was given a compensation package of $100 million, which may have undervalued the firm. It was subsequently reprivatized in 1987 as part of Credit Commercial. See [1], [2], and [3] nadav 07:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helena Bonham Carter

Why was this person deleted? Her inclusion appears to me to be correct. PatGallacher 15:14, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

She is descended from an illegitimate female-descended line of the family, via marriage, and is not a direct descendent. She is thus not considered even remotely to be a member of the PINDAR Rothschild family. She is, however, due to her genetic background, extremely programmed. There are many descendents of the Rothschilds. Only a select few are legitimate heirs to the Dynasty. Atun

[edit] Family Tree

Can somebody add a family tree to this article? It would make the relationships between the indidvidual persons much clearer! 83.216.148.11 2 July 2005 00:32 (UTC)

What's the story regarding the "jewishness" of the current generation, are they a washed out assimilated atheistic/christian group, or are they still a great jewish family supportive of jewish causes?

I would have phrased the question more neutrally, but I was wondering the same thing. So much of the family seems to have married into non-Jewish wealthy families or aristocracy, yet I know the Rothschild foundations still contribute a lot to Israel and Jewish causes. I wonder who in the British and French branches is still technically Jewish today. nadav
Um. I understand what you guys are saying, but what does "technically Jewish" mean? It depends on whether you regard Judaism as purely a religion or primarily an ethnicity. Sammy Davis Jr. was as Jewish as Baron Rothschild since Judaism makes no distinction of "degree" between those born to Jewish parents and those who convert. I believe what you mean to ask is whether many of the current generation of Rothschilds are actively "religious." I get the feeling that most of them are not. That could be said of many people in any western religous group. My wife's family are all -- theoretically -- Roman Catholic, but almost none of them go to mass except on Special Occasions and several of them have divorced and remarried (including my wife). But they still write down "R.C." when filling out forms and I dare say the Rothschilds list themselves as "officially" Jewish. . . . --Michael K. Smith 17:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Could someone detail the arranged marriages between closely-related family members? Incest is hot. Es-won 15:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Waterloo

I have seen it argued, fairly persuasively based on stock and bond prices, that the idea the Rotherchild's had advance knowledge of Waterloo is a myth. I will try and find the source. --Amcalabrese 21:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Well yes and no. He did know a day (Tues) ahead of the 'official' news from an account, brought to him by his agent from Ostend, in a Dutch newspaper. He gave that same news to the British Cabinet (Wed morning) but the account was so vague and as rumours were so wild and so frequently wrong they chose not to believe it and kept quiet until they had news from a trusted source - which arrived (in the evening) in the person of one of Wellington's aides de camp Henry Percy. You can cite Elizabeth_Longford Wellington: Pillar of State if need be. Afaik there is no evidence, even though he knew, that he bought up bonds on the cheap between the crucial tues/wed. Whether this was down to not being sure himself of the accuracy or other reasons we can't say at this removeAlci12 16:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

An important ommission is that the Rothschilds' also financed Napoleon during this War. I personally don't have the sources but it is widely documented.

AS(UWO)

[edit] Popular culture

Removed the following:

Over the course of almost 250 years of Rothschild family prominence, a great many members have distinguished themselves in business, philanthrophy, science, public service, and as patrons of the arts. Like any family, they have suffered their share of scandals, but the Rothschilds remain today as one of the great and enduring non-royal dynasties.

as fawning, unencyclopaedic and generally unnecessary. --Black Butterfly 14:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I entirely agree -- and I love your use of "fawning"! --Michael K. Smith 17:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] coat of arms

Anyone want to locate the coat of arms? They used to be on the Hebrew and German verions of the page, but no more. --Valley2city 00:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It was probably a copyright issue. I am trying to ascertain now whether we can put it back up. It would be interesting if we actually had to ask the family's permission to display their arms. For all I know , that might actually be the law (in the UK at least). nadav 05:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added it now and am claiming fair use. nadav 07:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How wealthy is the rothschild family?

Where would the rothschild family rank on the forbes' list of richest people?

A reliable source at the Independent (UK) says "$trillions"
"the ability of the family which has founded one of the world's largest private banking dynasties to sustain their secretive fortune, which industry insiders count not in billions but in trillions, and keep it within the family."
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article56239.ece
This is a different independent source which basically comes to the same conclusion:
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/rothschild2.html

[edit] Dubious statistic

By the middle of the 19th centry the Rothschild family had become one of the wealthiest family dynasties in the world. Their collective worth was estimated to be over $6 billion.[ref]Frederic Morton, The Rothschilds: Portrait of a Dynasty, 1962. ISBN 1-56836-220-X[/ref] In 1850, the GDP of the United States of America was about $3 billion.

This passage was removed because it is an unfounded assertion, inaccurately quoted. What the Morton citation actually says is:- "The total wealth encompassed by the clan during most of the nineteenth century has been estimated at well over 400 million pounds. No one else, from the Fuggers to the Rockefellers, has come even close to that hair-raising figure." (1962 Secker & Warburg edition) Morton gives no source for his statement. --mervyn 10:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amschel Mayer

The link for Amschel Mayer (the son) directs to Mayer Amschel (the father).--Simplesam (talk) 07:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for alert -- now fixed at Amschel Mayer Rothschild. --mervyn (talk) 12:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

Good lord, is there a way to flag an article to Wikipedia to get it; I dunno, cleaned up? Maybe put into a state where it's much harder to edit it? I looked through the "contact Wikipedia" section, but couldn't find anything on flagging an article for it's lack of neutrality. This article obviously needs cleaned up, and is so lacking in neutrality it's insane. So much for looking at Wikipedia to find some objective information regarding this family.

I see one man has taken the task of cleaning it up, and I congratulate him on the task before him. But wow, does this article have a way to go.

(oops, maybe that means that I'm a part of the conspiracy too, and the Rothschilds sent me here! LOL) Airelon (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

PART OF THE CONSPIRACY ...i believe you are!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.255.70.210 (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)