Talk:Romanesque architecture

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September 29, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted

Foolishly put up too many FACs simutaneously! Too much work to do!Amandajm 07:01, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

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Contents 1 Re withdrawal from FAC 2 Peterborough Cathedral? 2.1 Peterborough Cathedral 3 Please expand 4 First Photograph 5 Moved image of transitional architecture from gallery to Transitional section 6 Major rewrite underway 7 I disagree on so big rewrite. 8 Rewrite 9 What about brick structures? 10 Some nonsense? 10.1 Rebuilding v. reconstruction v. restoration 11 Holy Roman Empire and Charlemagne (!) 12 Bamberg Cathedral 13 Prophet Daneil Stained Glass help???

[edit] Re withdrawal from FAC

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[edit] Peterborough Cathedral?

I don't understand Peterborough Cathedral is here as a romanesque building. It is of course an old cathedral but I can't there see any single romanesque part. I think we should move it to famus gothic structures.

The west facade is evidently newer (Gothic), but the elavation is definitely Romanesque. -- Petri Krohn 23:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

This is only a drawing. Ia saw this cathedral in real ant haven't seen there any romanesque part. Have you photo of the elavation?

[edit] Peterborough Cathedral

Peterborough is one of the most magnificent Romanesque structures in England. It is beyond any doubt a Romanesque building.

However, all the Medieval cathedrals of England, but one, was built over a very long period of time. (Salisbury was built in only two stages and was not begun until the Gothic period.) Most English Cathedrals have Norman (Romanesque) remnants and some have Saxon.

In the case of Peterborough, the church was constructed, beginning at the East between 1117 and 1193 entirely in the Romanesque style. But in 1193, when work had reached the western end, there was a radical change in style and the facade was built with pointed Gothic arches to a design that had no architectural precedent and no Medieval successor.

A hundred years later the height of the tower over the crossing was greatly increased. In doing this, the builders inserted pointed arches under the tower. This means that if you look along the nave, you can see two pointed arches- the two that support the tower.

The person who says that they saw the building and didn't see any Romanesque, quite plainly doesn't know what the are looking at when they see it, and should not remove anything from this article! --Amandajm 11:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm convicted You are fairest expert of romanesque architecture. But is not enough to say: "I saw it. It is romanesque", when on all pictures evrybody can see it is a gothic structure. Show us the proof and wee will agree with you.--193.109.212.37 11:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I've only just noticed this addition!

I have stated here that the facade is 100% Gothic. And that there are Gothic arches under the tower. There is also, but I didn't mention it, an extension to the East end that is Gothic. The choir has a late Gothic wooden ceiling.

So what is Romanesque?

1. The western towers for most of their height. (One was extended in the Gothic Style)
2. The whole of the nave including the wooden ceiling
3. The choir which like many English cathedrals is very long, and is apsidal which is uncommon in England because most choirs are Gothic.
4. Both transepts.
5. The lower parts of the central tower

One of the things that often causes confusion with English buildings is the subsequent changes. Sometimes Romanesque windows are modifed to include Gothic tracery. This has happened in the transept ends. But the simple arrangement of small windows indicates the Romanesque overall plan, even though it has been "tarted up" in the 15th century. I'll try to find some pics. I've got some lovely pictures of the East end Gothic windows, but I will try to find the nave if I can. --Amandajm 08:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

PS. found a picture of the Nave, so you can see quite plainly that the building is Romanesque. --Amandajm 13:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please expand

The article is so poor that I can't believe my eyes. It seems like the poorest (architecturally speaking) countries of Europe conspired to flood this stub with dubious, red-linked samples of their provincial Romanesque, while the truly great and style defining buildings are not even mentioned. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Ghirla!... I think that there is no conspiration of the "poorest (architecturally speaking) countries of Europe" sic. I agree with you that this article is so poor (even more if we compare it with its correspondance in Baroque, that owes so much to you) but as I am one of the "conspirators" (my editions are in part responsible of the "red link" churches) I must aclare some things:

1- The name of the list is "Surviving Romanesque Buildings". I suppose it is referred to surviving buildings not to notable structures, as in other articles, like the ones of Gothic or Rennaisance. I have written the surviving Romanesque churches I know in Spain, but I know there are much more. As the sentence "this list is incomplete, please, complete it" is at the top of the list the point is to complete it, no matter how "important" are the churches. Among them are very important cathedrals and monasteries and rural churches, but all of them are "surviving". If you find it confusing you can move the list to another fork and put in this article the Notable Romanesque Buildings list.

2- Spain is definitely NOT architecturaly one of the poorest countries in Europe. Furthermore, as for the number and importance of monumental heritage it is the second country in Europe, under Italy (Great Italy). I don´t remember now who made the list, but I will find and write it here. It is normal that the geographical and cultural distance can make not know it. I am not an expert in Russian baroque, but I don´t deny it importance. Spain is a meeting point of several cultures that gave us Roman, Goth, Arab, and European artistic keys, and the main European styles are well represented, as well as particular ones, like Mudéjar or Asturian Art. I am not a fanatic: I know that Spain is not in the center of the World, but plenty good things happened here, and the voids in this Wikipedia about them are, as you say referring to this article, "a joke".

3- The term First Romanesque can be debatable. Anyway, I have read it in several "serious" books together with Lombard Romanesque. As for the problem of Romanesque or Pre-Romanesque, the Lombard (or First) Romanesque is considered to be proper Romanesque. You are right in that it may not be properly the "first", but the term is commonly used. But Ottonian architecture IS considered pre-romanesque, at least Conant, one of the experts in Carolingian art says so.

4- The article First Romanesque is not about architecture in Vall de Boí. The Style spreaded through the nort of Italy and the Pirinees. If you find it better, you can put it as a section in Romanesque Architecture, with the name Lombard Romanesque. By the way, there is a section in Wikicommons about "Romanico Lombardo", where you can see in images the main characteristics of the style. Anyway, I will find specifical references and bring them to you. Yours sincerely, --Garcilaso 17:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The list I referred before was made by UNESCO: Spain is the second country in the World in number of World Heritage Sites. Among them, you can find these related to Romanesque: Catalan Romanesque Churches of the Vall de Boí, Historic Walled Town of Cuenca, Old City of Salamanca, Old Town of Ávila, with its Extra-Muros churches, Old Town of Segovia, Route of Santiago de Compostela, San Millán de la Cogolla: Yuso and Suso Monasteries, Santiago de Compostela (Old Town). To these, you can add Mudéjar Architecture of Aragon (not properly Romanesque, but often referred to as Románico-mudéjar), Pre-romanesque Monuments of Oviedo and the Kingdom of Asturias, (and this is properly pre-romanesque), and Poblet Monastery (cister). Note that most of them are not a single monument but a whole city, with all its Romanesque and non Romanesque historical buildings. For complete list of Spanish World Heritage Sites see UNESCO´s page[1]

--Garcilaso 19:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

My phrase about the poorest countries did not refer to Spain. Otherwise I would have hardly written such entries as Spanish Baroque, Santa María de Guadalupe, Lonja de la Seda, Mudéjar Architecture of Aragon, etc. I would like to point out that adding more pictures and red links is neither informative nor helpful, it makes the article look slovenly and contradicts WP:CONTEXT. Therefore, I suggest to split the list into List of Romanesque architecture and to cut this article in two. As for the rest of your questions, you may want to address them to User:Wetman and User:Giano. They are very helpful wikipedians who know about architecture a lot more than myself. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 16:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your tweaks. I didn´t know that WP:CONTEXTS, its sounds quite logical. I agree also in splitting the article, leaving the list apart, but conserving the existing texts refered to France and Spain and adding other countries. And of course, expanding the text!

I have being looking at the list and I find in it the great style-defining buildings. I think that they should be here, as List of Notable Romanesque Structures, or integrated in the text. If the list is choosed, trying to define that "Notable" doesn´t mean "Big", but important for its artistic quality. Some imporant churches would be out of the list otherwise. До скорого!--Garcilaso 17:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I have split the article into a main part on the characteristics of the style and the List of Romanesque architecture, as has been suggested. It looks clearer to me now. I hope you guys like how it looks, otherwise the change can be reversed. Clearly the article needs more text on the characterisation of the style and on the romanesque of other regions of Europe, particularly Germany, Italy and England, which were very important in the development of romanesque. Mentions of the most notable romanesque buildings (for example the cathedrals of Durham, Pisa, Tournai, Speyer, Compostela etc) could be incorporated on these texts on regional romanesque. The list with many European examples, including the examples of peripheric countries, is good, since it shows how the style could spread all over the continent. Greetings, fsouza.

[edit] First Photograph

The first photograph people see on this page (the Interior of the Saint-Saturnin church) is pretty awful. Isn't there some other picture available which would better convey the achievement of medieval architecture?--136.160.174.107 01:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Fsouza. They look great.--136.160.174.36 04:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved image of transitional architecture from gallery to Transitional section

I believe that this image clearly presents the transitional period between Romanesque and Gothic as defined in the section and as such is better in the body of the article rather than in the gallery. --Lmcelhiney 15:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved it over to the left and shrunk it a bit - the reason I put it in the gallery in the first place is because the text was very picture heavy and all the spacing was weird. I still think it's a bit wonky, but can't figure out what else to do. I've got no real problem with the picture being there beyond the spacing.

One concern however, the 'transitional' nature of the picture is not immediately obvious to me, though it is more obvious when referring to the text. Perhaps the caption could be altered to state that the lower section is Romanesque while the upper is Gothic? Unsure if this is accurate. WLU 20:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither I see the transition. It seems to be a Romanesque door and a fully-developed Gothic upper section.--Garcilaso 08:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

If you read the text accompanying the picture, it is more obvious. I think I'll change the caption. WLU 13:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major rewrite underway

In rewriting the intro, I have not linked all the various features. They will aquire the necessary links in the section Characteristics.

In rewriting that the characteristics section, this is notification that some of the things that it says now will change completely, because they are either badly expressed (it wasn't in sentences until I did a bit of a quick fix some months ago) or inaccurate. There is one sentence there which I can't interpret!

The description of a-b-b-a as two piers between columns is wrong. It should read two columns between piers.

This sentence "There is also one new element in the capitals developed during the Romanesque period—the impost, a trapezoid form that stands between capital and arch" is incorrect- the impost was not a new element, it had been around since Roman times and in Byzantine architecture imposts are often as large and as decorative as the capitals.

The "cubic" capital of St Michael's Hildesheim and other such is simply a roughed-in Corinthian-type capital that has never been carved, and perhaps was never intended to be, but retains the basic form, marked by the way in which the sqare angles are often cut off on a slope or a curve so that the capital becomes roughly octagonal where it rests on the column. --Amandajm 06:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I disagree on so big rewrite.

This article has been set up on 20 May 2002. During 5 years Wikipedians work on it to make it (according to Wikipedia idea) possible objective. And now one person says that your work is nothing and make "major rewrite". I think that is completely incompatible with Wikipedia idea and I can't agree with taht.--Tlumaczek 16:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

It seems that the concepts of community and 'ownership' are in play here. Nobody owns an article, and anyone is welcome to contribute, thoughtfully. It matters not whether many editors or a single contributor makes a major rewrite, what matters is that the material be accurate and well prioritized--encyclopedic. This particular editor, Amandajm, is an erudite and excellent contributor. My prediction is that the article will be well served by her efforts. JNW 21:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. As someone who has created some articles on mediaeval buildings, I think that an erudite rewriting of Romanesque like this one by Amandajm was really needed. Fsouza 22:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The article was greatly in need of an overhaul. Like many of the generic art/architecture articles it was piecemeal. However, it contained valuable information, and some well expressed ideas by other editors which have been retained and incorporated into the present article. The progress of the article has been watched by Atillios who makes valuable contributions to architectural pages, and has been checked over and contributed to by Johnbod, with his good historical knowledge and expertise in medieval art. I welcome meaningful additions and suggestions, and have incorporated one of the photos put into the gallery by this user who is complaining.

--Amandajm 09:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Good work, Amandajm!--Garcilaso 14:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What about brick structures?

Don't you think, that would be advisable to show at least one picture of it on this page? --83.27.103.101 08:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're right! i've fixed it. --Amandajm 08:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some nonsense?

Is it not true that in the 1830s the Bamberg Cathedral was rebuilt as Romanesque by Friedrich Gärtner? Is it not true that purist recontructions where rather rebuildings consistent with architects imagination than true reconstructions? The duty of encyclopedia is to inform about such things. Even if it does not please you.--193.109.212.37 07:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Assuming this point is relevant, please see this first. regards --Merbabu 07:54, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

http://www.josef-bayer.de/akr/krit_texte/domumbau2.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Archiwolt (talk • contribs)

[edit] Rebuilding v. reconstruction v. restoration

Tlumazcek, (excuse me if my spelling is wrong)

Unless you can find evidence to suggest that the buildings were actually demolished and rebuilt, then it is sufficient to say that it was a "heavy handed" restoration. To state that the building was "rebuilt" is incorrect.

In the case of the facade of Speyer, yes indeed it was a complete rebuilding. They demolished a Baroque facade to do it. But other than that, Speyer remains a Romanesque building. And to say it was rebuilt is nonsense. In the case of Bamberg, a lot of the work that was done there in the early 19th century was excessive and heavy handed. But according to the sources I have read, to say that the building was "rebuilt" is not correct. However, if you can find evidence to the contrary, that is in English, please let me know.

Also, the article on Bamberg Cathedral could use some expansion. So could all the articles on Polish architecture. I lose patience with nitpicking, particularly from someone who doesn't sign their name and changes computer frequently.

In any case, to use Bamberg as a picture of a church that has a typically Germanic Romanesque appearance remains correct, regardless of when it was completed, rebuilt or restored. --Amandajm 08:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Roman Empire and Charlemagne (!)

It is wrong to say that "the Holy Roman Empire had been established by Charlemagne". The HRE came to existence much later, in fact the eastern part of the empire of Charlemagne first became the Kingdom of Germany (Treaty of Verdun 843), then the HRE. That paragraph should be re-phrased entirely. Xav71176 15:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Changed in line with this comment. --Amandajm 10:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure much better with your change, thanks Xav71176 14:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I don't know whether you're the same person who made further changes, as there was no ID. I reversed them. The reason is that this article does not pretend to deal with the fall of Rome and the division of the Empire. Using two different names to describe the Byzantine Empire is overkill here, particularly since the Byzantine Empire is considered to have begun with Constantine in the 4th century and we here are setting the stage for the devlopments in architecture of 700 years later. I reallly think that to say that domes and ornamental carvings continued unabated in the Byzantine Empire is adequate and in no way misleading. The fact that their style was much changed since the fall of Rome is the other significant architectural fact and this had almost lost its meaning in the rearrangement. --Amandajm 06:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bamberg Cathedral

I have reversed the recent edit to this caption (The present appearance of the cathedral is the result of a purist reconstruction from 1830s made by Friedrich von Gärtner.) for a couple of reasons.

• The editor is unnamed. Some months ago an un-named editor who frequently swapped computers and who refused to get a name kept adding uncited information of this type. I presume this is the same editor.

• The comments prompted me to investigate a number of the German buildings that were a matter of comment.

In the case of Bamberg, all the evidence that I can find points to the fact that the interior was the subject of considerable 19th century "reconstruction" (as against "restoration"). However, the evidence points to the fact that the exterior of Bamberg Dom looks much the way it did at the end of the 13th century, and although one must presume it was heavily restored in the 19th century, the "distinctive outline" commented on in the picture's caption is not the result of a "purist reconstruction" but because that is the way it has appeared for about 700 years.

• In addition to this, the statement "Bamberg Cathedral presents the distinctive outline of many of the large Romanesque churches of the Germanic tradition." is carefully worded to hold true, even if the building has suffered considerable reconstruction.

• If the building was heavily reconstructed in the 19th century, then this information doesn't really belong within a short caption. It needs to be placed on the wiki-page of Bamberg Cathedral.

One thing that I find hard to comprehend is why this un-named editor repeatedly adds these comments to the Romanesque architectuure page but ignores the potential of the Friedrich von Gärtner page which could be greatly expanded with a list of the buildings that von Gärtner worked on and a bit of investigation to find out just how extensive his changes were to individual buildings. I'd really like to know more about this, and from my present vantage point, hhave little opportunity to investigate it, so, whoever-you-are, please get on with it! Amandajm (talk) 08:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prophet Daneil Stained Glass help???

ive had a stained galss painting at my house for a while now, and it is of the prophet daniel. on the "romanesque acrhitecture" wikipedia page there is a picture of half of this stained glass painting. in the picture, he is holding a scroll, with visible text on it. does anyone have an idea what this text is in english, as it has been a mystery of our household for many years and no-one knows what it means????? or at the least, are you able to give me a direction as to where i can find out?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.50.143.22 (talk) 04:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• It looks like "Ostende Domine" with contractions, but these words don't appear in the Vulgate text of Daniel. It may be an paraphrase of daniel 9:17: "Nunc ergo exaudi, Deus noster, orationem servi tui, et preces ejus: et ostende faciem tuam super sanctuarium tuum, quod desertum est propter temeti." Johnbod (talk) 05:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)