Talk:Rivethead

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[edit] Could this article be more biased?

"Because of their liking for black clothes and trench coats, Klebold & Harris were mistakenly labelled by the media as "Goths", a peaceful, non-violent subculture which became a scapegoat for the ensuing media witchhunt."

Could we please keep the Rivetheads and Goths from vandalizing this article? Æniad (talk) 19:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eh?

It's pretty obviously wrong. Gothic subculture developed as a responce to the sound and aesthetic of the punk scene. Goth in no way developed first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.199.242 (talk) 03:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I tagged it with Citation Needed. Half of this article seems to be original research. The other half does not cite it's sources.
It is time for a serious rewrite, this time, according to offical policies of WP. I hope someone is interested, because I simply don't have time to do it alone.
--DJFishlips (talk) 03:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WTF--It's all gone?!

It looks like someone's notes. I thought I was on the talk page!

This is a seriously horrible page, definitely needs some improvements in language style alone.

[edit] Why no pix?

There were pix, now they are gone. ?????

[edit] ...

Do we really need 2 paragraphs to say some Rivetheads listen to EBM and some listen to Noise? And shouldn't all the additional genre description be left to the pages for Industrial, EBM, Futurepop, etc?

[edit] Ok, now this has gone too far...

1) "'Rivethead' was born from the EBM subculture, not industrial".

Man, this must be one of the dumbest things I've heard. If that's true, show me your sources! Because I can show you who first used rivethead in an Industrial Music context and when it was first used [1].

Also, EBM is an outgrowth of Industrial music. So it's a subgenre at most, and not an entirely separate musical entity. You know what were the early influences of Nitzer Ebb and Front 242? DAF, Cabaret Voltaire and Throbbing Gristle.

Hmmm... In what genre of music do these last three belong again? Goth rock?

2) "It's more like goths than anything else".

That's cybergoth newbie babble; the work of goth teenagers trying to steal the poppier side of Industrial music to themselves - stuff like Futurepop. Goth music is The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, Joy Division, Fields of the Nephilim... ever heard of 'em?

3) "The term 'rivethead' was first coined by the Edinburgh based British cultural critic Alan Cruickshank (see DJ Parasyt)".

How does a 19 year old kid [2] coin the term rivethead? I mean, back in 1993, when it was first used in the Industrial counterculture, how old was this guy? 4 years old? This seems rather absurd, doesn't it?

Musicaindustrial 18:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Industrial is a separate article.

"Rivethead" should not explain "Industrial". I'm going to try to fix it.

[edit] Yes, this page must cite Industrial.

How can someone - for example - describe Punks without saying a word about the Anarchy and the Sex Pistols? Without the music and the ideas you're just describing a dumb stereotype - spiked hair, torn clothes, anarchy patch on the back of the jacket, etc.

And that is a complete disservice to any youth culture.

Musicaindustrial 17:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please, stop with the lies.

It's like this article is saying that fans of any of the so-called "sub-genres" of industrial wear outfits based off of cyberpunk and goth clichés in an effort to fit in with a so-called subculture. Real industrial has no specific dress code or even musical style. It's not about fashion or being offensive. The music itself is more an approach than a genre, using boundless experimentation to combine many genres and styles. And obviously, there is no common ideology. All of this points to the fact that there is NO stereotypical fan. Labels and categorization are the enemy of industrial enthusiasts if anything. Individuality is the thing most encouraged!

What I'm having the hardest time understanding is why a few people here feel the need to broaden it's definition. Do you actually think that acts like Nurse With Wound or Coil are at all similar to Combichrist or Angelspit or that they have the same audience/fanbase? This is just ridiculous!

[edit] Rivet Head Culture wasn't an EBM compilation...

Rivet Head Culture was the beginning of Coldwave – a specifically American subgenre of Industrial Music (see Chemlab, 16 Volt, etc). Coldwave has loads of guitars in it – a thing which “true” EBM fans loathe, by the way. So, no EBM here.

Musicaindustrial 17:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

--- So some of it's not EBM, it's synth-rock. Still not industrial. ---

[edit] Synth-rock?

Is that really a music style? Who are it's representatives? What are it's characteristics? Burzum, Moby and Nine Inch Nails mix rock with synthesizers, but are they really alike?

Musicaindustrial 18:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Since when "Rivethead music" is different from Industrial Music?

Cite your sources!

Musicaindustrial 17:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How come the Industrial Counterculture associated is with the Rave / Clubber subculture? I don’t think so!

I’m really disturbed by that association. People, please: these two are a very different set of cultures.

For one, the philosophy’s completely different. Ravers abide by P.L.U.R., which is basically the updated “peace & love” motto for the Ecstasy Generation. On the opposite corner stands Industrial Music’s interests, which thrive on things despicable to the hippie culture: the Manson Family and Nazism, for example. The Rave culture is about the renaissance of the Hippie culture, while Industrial Music was about its death.

Two, club culture is all about hedonism; there’s no interest in politics or anything remotely connected to a “greater cause”. Yes, most Industrial acts are explicitly non-political (except for Test Department and those Right-wing Neofolk groups), but social commentary has always been a tradition in Industrial Music circles. Even something like DAF’s nonsensical “Der Mussolini” whipped a storm of controversy when initially released in Germany.

Third, the drug of choice of the ‘Ecstasy Generation’ is telling: MDMA, a psychoactive substance that just for a few hours makes you love everybody else in the world. Can any of you imagine a bunch of Rivetheads cuddling together on a dance floor?

C’mon people, that sounds ludicrous.

Fourth, the sort of chemically-induced happiness that Ravers adore sounds naïve and artificial to most Rivetheads. Industrial Music has always been about facing reality, warts and all. This sort of aggressive (but down-to-earth) attitude doesn’t really side with the sunny dispositions of stoned, utopian neo-hippie kids… Does it?

Fifth (and last!), Chris Ho of O magazine once said that Nitzer Ebb and Nine Inch Nails were “the punk rock of electronic music” while acid house was it’s discothèque – empty, repetitive and crassly commercial music. I think that this same kind of logic might be applied to electronica in general (except for a few subgenres like Breakcore, IDM, Gabber, Digital Hardcore, etc). Sadly, electronica’s pop-tart mentality has rubbed off in some contemporary EBM acts, mainly Futurepop groups.

Musicaindustrial 17:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

So some guy said industrial was punk and all other electronic was disco. So what?
And what makes you think industrial is so much more deep and meaningful than other genres
of electronic music? Most electronic music is for DANCING, not making a political
statement. That is why it is repetitive! And I would say that most industrial is
fairly repetitive. Better apolitical than pseudo-Nazi.
And calling the "opposition" (as if there are only rivetheads and ravers, you can't like two genres) stoned, utopian hippies is stupid.

It is "deeper" and "more meaningful" than most genres of electronic music. No doubt about that. Go read some RE/Search magazines, the three volumes of Rapid Movement Movement or Charles Neal's Tape Delay book to see what I mean. There's a rare few genres in pop music that can match up to industrial music's set of concepts and ideas.

Also, the vast majority of Industrial Music artists aren't pseudo-Nazis at all... not even close. There's an irony behind their imagery. Musicaindustrial 16:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Instead of referencing to magazines and books, please give some links (where possible) or at least a issue/page number, so we can verify (or take a look at) their contents!
Also, the vast majority of Industrial Music artists does not include EVERY Industrial Music artist.
You know, NPOV is absolute :).
Best regards, DJFishlips (talk) 03:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ...

So you think all electronic music is gay and shitty except industrial? The article is supposed to be neutral though.

So you think all electronic music is gay (...) except industrial?

There's a lot of homosexuals in Industrial Music (Coil, for one), so being gay is not really an issue in this scene. Musicaindustrial 16:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

So you think all electronic music is (...) shitty except industrial?

I like electronica - I have CDs from Massive Attack, Orbital, Aphex Twin, The Prodigy, etc. My original intention wasn't to diss electronica - sorry it came out that way - but you gotta understand that between Industrial Music and electronica there's a completely different frame of mind. I really wanted to get that across, and in the process I might have overreacted. Musicaindustrial 16:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] blah

Okay, look at noise or old industrial's members or fanbase. What are they wearing? What is the attitude? Now do the same with EBM/Futurepop whatever.

Are there any similarities? Would these people like to hang out or chat about philosophies together?

There is much hostility between industrial enthusiasts and "rivetheads". The word "rivethead" is often used as an insult by members of the former group. And how can a form of experimental music have any sort of subculture? The whole point is to question things and celebrate differences.

Have I misinterpreted years of this sort of thing or what?


You are so totally right. The original Industrial Scene.. there was no Scene. Ther was no real fashion. It was so limited; it was an experimental musical genre that really was absorbed into the later Post-Punk musical developments.

I mean, a Scene would seem to connote concerts, music clubs. BUT THERE WAS NO REAL SUBCULTRE, NO CLUBS NO SUCH THING!

In Los Angeles Industrial music is synonymous with Dance music not Throbbing Gristle.

And I think this argument that Rivetheads are not derivitive from Goths, is an exaggeration of this early Industrial Scene, which never existed.

Btw, I do not like Industrial Dance music (EBM). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.187.71 (talk) 21:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This article has been raped...

It's all... non-encyclopedic.

So you prefer "Rivetheads just listen to EBM and some Dark Ambient,
wear multiple piercings and are the new Goths"? And "Oh yes, the
word "Rivethead" was invented by a British guy when he was 4 years old"?
Doesn't that sound bizarre, or is it just me?
Musicaindustrial 20:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is so messed up.

This article isn't about industrial music and it's meanings or subgenres, we already have a page for that. This article is about the goth club subculture who wear outlandish outfits with goggles or gasmasks.

OK, I checked out other youth culture pages here on Wikipedia and their music section
is much smaller than this one. If anyone wants to condense it further, fine - after all,
this is a public space. But please, I beg you: just don't put that "Rivetheads listen
to EBM and some Dark Ambient" again.

[edit] Snippets from the Side-Line forum.

Lovely stuff... these are taken from the What is "Industrial" as a counterculture? [3] thread:

  • "...unfortunately the music got way ahead of the counterculture following it".
  • "...cybergoth ugh."
  • "...today's scene is more into clothing then content (...)."
  • "While the sound and craft of the music has progressed, the headspace behind the music has faded. People who listen to serious industrial in the larger scenes and spaces around the world are simple party-drug addicts that like to have their own confined cliche niche. The overcommercialisation and influence of the "cyber" generation has done untold harm to the genre by making it generic and no better than any other electronica genre out there...".
  • "Hence, this is why all the music we hear at the moment is necessarily geared towards the dancefloor. However, being danceable is not a bad thing, but the message has died. I mean, exploring the darker side of human nature is all very well, but what's the point of continually glorifying serial killers?".
  • "You want to know where industrial culture is currently going? Down the toilet. What's needed is more bands with integrity (...)".
  • "Industrial needs a purpose in order to survive."
  • "The artistic integrity of the music is diluted, because industrial means nothing really anymore, so really you have to go back to the source, and the source is obsucurant and unwilling to be easly packaged. So instead we have a sort of vacuous meta-culture of pure image: bands that despite playing techno music claim to be industrial because they have a shade of distortion or guitar bit."

[edit] And now, snippets from the rec.music.industrial forum.

Enjoy...

These ones are about Industrial Music's current state-of-affairs...

  • "Industrial music in its purest form has been dead since the late 80s, as we all know. (...) The things it originally stood for, such as innovation and darkness have turned into other genres such as powernoise (which is not something you can call innovative any more) IDM (...) and the more grindy ambient music. The rest of it signed to Metropolis and started churning out the same old shite.". [4]

And this one is about Cybergoths... not to be confused with Rivetheads:

  • "Cybergoths - goggles, clothes from cyberdog, mutlicoloured hair extensions, a taste for glowing and flashing things, tend to be largely into Ultraviolence type gabba and EBM/futurepop type stuff, tend to dance with their elbows." [6] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.13.91.239 (talk) 13:48:48, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abow the New Edits on this Article's Introduction

"A Rivethead is a person associated with the Industrial Music subculture".

Actually, the urban tribe built around Industrial Music is not a subculture. It's a counterculture.

"Industrial Music was coined in 1976 as another subgenre of the Punk movement".

Not true either. Cabaret Voltaire started recording their music in 1974, and Throbbing Gristle (then known as COUM Transmissions) in 1975. Which means: they started doing their music 1-2 years before The Ramones, The Damned or The Sex Pistols released their first records. So, how could Industrial be considered a Punk Rock subgenre if the latter didn't exist yet?
It is also important to note that, musically speaking, early Industrial music and Punk Rock were worlds apart. They could never be grouped together.

"Gothic subculture developed first".

The sources used in the article contradict that statement.

Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Urban tribe to subculture and Gabber removed

I changed the "Related Urban Tribes" section title to "Related Subcultures", and removed Gabber.

Gabber is a music genre, not a subculture. And, as far as I know, Gabber music is not related to Rivetheads or the Industrial subculture. If someone feels it's related to Industrial, then please include it in the article Industrial music instead. --DJFishlips (talk) 02:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Gabber came from Hardcore Techno, which in turn came from Acid House. Chapter 7 of Matthew Collin's Altered State: The Story of Ecstasy Culture and Acid House (1997) documents the history of this particular dance music subgenre very well. Musicaindustrial 12:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Gabber actually is, or at least was a small subculture in the Netherlands. Also known as "Lonsdale Kids" [7] [8] [9] [10], they had a reputation of being hooligans. Whether or not they associated themselves with rivetheads I don't know [11].

[edit] Citing BlackWaterfall

I repaired the citation link to the source BlackWaterFall about rivetheads (http://www.blackwaterfall.com/7rivethead.php), however the source does not verify the claim it is connected with. Is it worth a serious discussion or must it be removed? --DJFishlips (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)