Talk:Rick Warren

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[edit] Balanced?

Just an observation but it seeems a majority of the article is on his critics. Gtstricky 15:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] moriel.org

One guy from 74.227.46.247 is trying to remove "{{}}" from citation links. I'm considering it vandalism, and turning it back, but if there's any reason for doing so, please post it. --FernandoAires 10:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archives

There were a warning, every time we edit this talk page, asking for creating an archive. I don't know if I did it the best way, but, well, I did it. Fell free to discuss and change anything, and sorry for any mistake. --FernandoAires 13:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Censored information by FernandoAires

WHY? RE: WIKI policy: "let the facts speak for themselves." Financial information regarding Rick Warren's enterprises was posted by myself and was subsequently deleted by FernandoAires. Actual links showing IRS forms 990 were cited and linked. Fernando, you state you live in Brazil; if you are not familiar with the American Internal Revenue Service---perhaps you should familarize yourself with the necessity and accuracy of their data. I plan to repost, and should the financial information be removed again; I will file a dispute with Wiki. (sent by a guy from 72.26.158.119 to a wrong page, and moved to here)

In answer, I must say, first of all, that I have no problem at all with criticism of Rick Warren, and, as you can see in former discussions, I defended criticism in other points. When I removed that (and it was my fault not explaining why here, so sorry about that), it was for one main reason: it seemed to violate the Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons official policy. I'm not sure about if it still don't violate, but I--Shunt11 07:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)'ll try to organize that in a way that follows Wikipedia standards.
But, with no offense at all (actually I'm very glad every time that someone starts to help Wikipedia), please start yourself considering Wikipedia as a encyclopedia, and nothing more. We are not here to state what's true, but some encyclopedical content about interesting matters. Policies are here to well define what's encyclopedical content, and that's why most of us follow them, and kept so strict about them. So don't be mad: it's not personal, in any way. --FernandoAires 18:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
There are other problems: it is undocumented ("see guidestar.org" is not sufficient documentation), and it is apparently original research. Rocksong 23:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

This guy is a dedicated Christian. The Christians who criticize him are spoon-fed new age crap. -66.218.19.31

Rick Warren is NOT a Christian. In his book The Purpose Driven Life, he misquotes the Bible and takes it out of context numerous times. He also quotes from paraphrases such as the Message and TEV that aren't true to the original meaning of the Bible. If he was a Christian, he wouldn't dare to misquote the Bible
Skillmaster 05:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

CITATION NEEDED: The last sentence under Criticisms, "Rick Warren also has been criticized for saying it isnt neccessary to study Bible Prophecy", is an uncited allegation that should either be cited or removed. Ex. When and where did he say that, and who wrote the criticism? --Mcrouse2004 22:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Reporting blogger news that is unsubstaniated, based on conjecture, and lacks a "credible" source (something beyond an internet address)should not be part of a biography. Accusations, interjections, and opinions do not make the cut as "biographical material".Jonnswift 07:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Blogs should not be used as references, as they ARE full of opinion and are unprofessional in citation. The issue presented at the end of the criticism section, however, IS a criticism, and criticisms are always opinion based and only need to be noted as so. The section should be added for notability, and not to pressure a right/wrong stance.--Jake 07:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Sources have been added, one to cite that the Warren-Murdoch tie is more official than just speculation. The other is a conservative-Christian news source (which you will rarely find me cite), that while it is opinionated, is accurate among it's religious content. The citation clearly states the FACT that an opinon does exist. Opinions in this article are only presented in the form of quotes from important figures in the cons. Chris. scene. --Jake 08:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I give up on questioning the morality of these Christian figureheads. The facts are plain, the criticism exists widely in the Christian community. I don't personally think there is connection. This isn't an opinionated issue for me, as I am not a Christian, nor do I have opinions on Rick Warren or Rupert Murdoch. Somebody please make this small issue more obviously factual. --Jake 08:12, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The faulty logic that you are using and the short sighted application of guidelines is beyond reason. First, Warren has also been called "America's Pastor" therefore using the logic you're supporting as reason enough to keep this post, we could say that Warren is responsible for America's current state. How absurd is that?! Also, your NPOV comment may be appropriate for being "neutral" only, however, neutrality does not give weight or support to improper association. To say that Warren is responsible for the way Murdoch thinks is a stretch in the largest sense of the word. That kind of opinion and interjection has no place in a biographical article.Jonnswift 08:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
While I think we are both on similar sides of the argument, I do not understand why an issue which has seriously degraded Warren's reputation among the more extreme Christian community is not biographical enough for at the very least, a brief explanation of the reasoning. I would never associate Rick Warren with the current state of America simply because of a title, and nobody else has yet made that association. I do not think that Warren has any influence on the "morally reprehensible" actions of Murdoch, however, the connection forged between the two issues has formed criticism. That section is reserved for criticisms that can be recognized easily. I think a quick search of the internet will show you that many people have strong interest and strong opinions on the issue.--Jake 08:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


kudos to Warren et. al for allowing the criticism section to exist....rare in these circles anymore.

[edit] Sidebar on Southern Baptists should be moved

When I first looked at the page, it looked as though a vandal had blanked it. Then I realized the article started below the sidebar. Either the sidebar should be moved to the bottom of the page or this needs to be fixed some other way. I am really poor at formatting or I would do it myself. RonCram 10:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removed short Critics section and placed it here

This should not be included if and until it is verified and cited correctly. One could easily list out several thousand key pastors who do support Warren.

Critics There are a number of pastors, ministries and authors throughout the world who are critical of Warren and his teachings{fact|December 2007}, including Dr. John MacArthur, who addressed Warren in a chapter in his book, Fool's Gold. Other critics include Chuck Smith, Jimmy Swaggart, Dave Hunt, Daniel Dennett, David Cloud, Berit Kjos, Texe Marrs, and Dr. Noah Hutchings.[verification needed]

[edit] Cleanup of Self-Published and Blog-Sourced Links and "See Also"

Users Knight1000, GlassFET (Journeyman Editor) and Lyonscc updated the article to remove multiple links to blog and self-published sources (primarily, though not limited to, criticism). These were in violation of W:BLP:

Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies, and could lead to libel claims.

Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all in biographies of living people, either as sources or via external links.

Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article(...)

Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals if the information is derogatory. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy.

Additionally, links in the "See Also" section to the Emerging Church and Brian McLaren were removed, as these are not directly related to Rick Warren by W:V sources. The link to Joel Osteen has also been removed from this section, as Osteen is more often associated with the Prosperity Gospel movement, not the Seeker Sensitive movement, and is a firmly identified linkage through Verifiable sources.--Lyonscc (talk) 19:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Information Needing Further Investigation

Apparently Rick Warren has links to Megachurch groups needing further elaboration and management writer Peter Drucker and the interestingly political movement called Dominionism in the Christian Right See this article http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm and return commentary. Dominionism as a group argues against the separation of State and Church and thus opposes the US Constitution. -- 58.163.136.175 (talk) 13:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

No further investigation is needed. This is blog-sourced material, highly speculative, and it would not belong in a personal biography. Trying to insert it in would not add anything to the biography of substance, but, rather, would coatrack this tertiary issue. See WP:COAT for more information on coatracking and WP:BLP for sourcing guidelines for living persons.--Lyonscc (talk) 19:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Lyonscc as to blog sourced material. I also personally know that Rick Warren is adamantly against theocracy and/or dominionism - it's not in his vocabulary. So, any assertion to such by a source would have to be categorically verified to even be considered and would be easily refuted. CarverM (talk) 06:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of unsourced statements

I've removed this from the criticism:

Warren's books have come under criticism from some Christian groups who question the practices promoted in these books, claiming that they distort the gospel or otherwise employ questionable tactics. Other common criticisms include objections to the accuracy with which it presents the Christian gospel[citation needed], the accuracy of their Biblical exegesis[citation needed], and various allegedly unbiblical teachings[citation needed]. Many critics contend that Warren compromises on various doctrinal truths and that he espouses ecumenical teachings.

because they are all unsourced. From WP:verifiability:

Do not leave unsourced information in articles for too long, or at all in the case of information about living persons.

It shouldn't be that hard to make the effort to come up with attributable reliable sources. "Some Christian groups" and "many critics" are examples of disallowed weasel words. Do the research, learn how to cite and add them back in. If it is a particular critic, then attribute them as does the other criticism of the section:

Philosopher and atheist Daniel C. Dennett has stated that Warren's book The Purpose Driven Life makes claims about the Universe which are "false", and that it "discourages people from scientific understanding".[1]

∴ Therefore | talk 05:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for the lecture. Pairadox (talk) 05:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Ha! I stand properly corrected as a pedant. I apologize. I'll try to loosen up and not assume that the editors of this page aren't aware of standard procedure. Thanks! ∴ Therefore | talk 05:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:) De nada! There's a new editor with some drafts in progress, so we'll probably see improvements soon. Pairadox (talk) 05:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I've returned some of the criticisms along with a source removed last month for the spurious reasoning that a reliable source shouldn't be allowed unless Warren's blogged rebuttal is included. Pairadox (talk) 21:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It is the responsibility of other editors to include Warren's rebuttals; it certainly doesn't preclude reliable criticisms as it stands now. ∴ Therefore | talk 22:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)