Talk:Richard Mentor Johnson

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Good article Richard Mentor Johnson has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.

Contents

[edit] older entries

Vice President of the United States says he was a Democrat; this says he was a Democrat-Republican. Which is it? --Golbez 06:37, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Democratic-Republican is the correct term for the party of the time, this party would be more similar to the Democratic party of today than to the Republican party, which would be more similar to the Whig party of the time of Richard Johnson. AG

Um, not quite ... he started his career as a Democratic-Republican; once that party broke up in the 1820s, he aligned himself with Jackson's faction, which was known as the Democratic Party by the time of his Vice-Presidency. I'm adding the Democratic designation to his infobox in line with the style for Van Buren, his predecessor in the vice presidency. --Jfruh (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

This reference states that after his first two wives died, he took Julia Chin as his common law wife. Who were his first two wives and what is the source referenced for that information? AG 5-Aug 2005

[edit] Never Married

Richard Mentor Johnson never married. I've read many references that say he had a long-term relationship with a family's slave, Julia Chinn. He had two daughter with her that he married into white society. After Julia's death he had a relationship with another slave that ended badly--he sold her at auction. I live in his home county, Scott County KY. Our library has many sources for this information.--FloNight 04:55, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Career

Please expand, he must have had other careers than a barman.

The Ronin 16:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Added material on Johnson's interracial relationship and its political effects; deleted unnecessary links; other tweaks.

I expanded the discussion of Johnson's interracial relationship, explaining that it was, very unusually, overt, and that it was notorious, with an example. I also explained exactly how this affected his political career in 1836-1840.

Also, the quoted version of his "election slogan" was incomplete.

Finally, every date and year mentioned was a link, which is not appropriate.

I added links to US Vice President and to some other references that might require explanation.

--Rich Rostrom 04:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

On balance, I am happy to pass this article as a GA. It is decently written, well-sourced with a wide range of references and appears to conform to all other guidelines. Should the authors wish to take the article further, I would suggest obtaining at least one thorough copyedit, as the prose is not of the brillant standard required by FA. One other minor problem is that the article includes several unecessary links (e.g. riot). Otherwise this is a very nice article, well done.--Jackyd101 (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non promotion

Don't worry about it too much; FA operates on a tight schedule, and it will take you a while to absorb the unsolicited advice. Come badk when you're done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll be happy to help as I can also. It's got the makings of a very nice article, and I enjoyed learning about his life. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I have access to the 1833 life by Emmons, and the 1843 by "a Kentuckian". (Meyers is out.) Both are manifestly campaign biographies, and of limited reliability; but they are not the same book, and both should be consulted, although not trusted (Johnson's publicity is part of the subject here). ANB and Pratt may be the best modern biographies. Good luck. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that information. I've requested the Pratt biography on Interlibrary Loan. Did you have any luck digging up the reprint of the "Father of American Cavalry" article? If not, I can request the book in which it was reprinted on ILL as well. I located it in several libraries within 100 miles of me. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 23:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The Pratt does contain the Cavalry article, according to the copyright page (or do you mean Meyers?).Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I meant the Pratt work. I'll try to get that on ILL. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I just got Life and Times on ILL for about a month. (Thanks U of L libraries!) I'm going to try and get the article in shape over the next two weeks. That leaves another two weeks for the FA nom to pass or fail before I have to return the book. I've also requested the Pratt work on ILL. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

Would anybody mind if I redid the format: I dislike two results of {{cite book}}: Last names should be second, so we can link, and dates should not be third unless we expect, as we do not here, two different sources by the same author?

FA shouldn't mind as long as we are consistent; cite templates are not required.

If I can change, I would like to do so before I add Pratt. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Last names should be second, so we can link." I assume you are talking about something that can't be done using the authorlink argument to {{cite book}}? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
No, something much simpler than authorlink: Fletcher Pratt, Eleven Generals; Studies in American Command, William Sloane Assoc., (1949): "Richard M. Johnson: Rumpsey-Dumpsey", the fourth chapter, pp. 81–97. No masking, no template, just straightforward formatting. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
If it doesn't bother FA reviewers, it doesn't bother me. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 19:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
I prefer Chicago style, which looks more professional on history articles, but since there are about 100 different citation styles used on Wikipedia—many of them seemingly invented on the spot—I don't think it really matters that much, as long as the needed information is there. —Kevin Myers 06:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Meyer

Congratulations.

What does Meyer say about

  • Johnson's birthdate
  • When he entered Transylvania (Pratt says 1796)
  • When he left (Emmons says he began studying law with George Nicholas after he left the University, a few weeks before Nicholas' death, i.e. spring 1799.)

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

For comparison, Edgar J. McManus in ANB gives 1780 as the birth year (and not a more specific date), and about his schooling says, "It is not known what schools Johnson attended, but he managed to learn Latin and later studied law under George Nicholas and James Brown. After being admitted to the bar in 1802...." By the way, McManus says that Johnson was "the first native Kentuckian elected to the state legislature." —Kevin Myers 06:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Meyer doesn't give a date for Johnson's birth at all. He does say that Johnson's father learned of a raid bound for Louisville in summer 1780 and that must have caused him great anxiety because his wife was there awaiting the birth of their fifth child, Richard M. Johnson. Meyer also goes farther than McManus, saying Johnson was the first native Kentuckian elected to the state legislature, the national congress, and the vice-presidency. (p. 20)
Regarding his education, Meyer says:

Just what preparatory school he attended is a conjecture...Johnson read law under George Nicholas, who died shortly after he accepted a professorship in the law department of Transylvania Seminary. According to Robert B. McAfee...[Johnson] was reading law with the Honorable James Brown in Lexington in 1800...At this time, Brown was a professor in Transylvania's law department. Some writers state that Johnson "finished a classic and scientific education;" others, that he was a graduate of Transylvania. But the name of Richard M. Johnson does not appear in the list published in 1824, which names graduates from 1802 to that date, nor do the records of the old seminary, or those of the early university after the merger, give Richard's name.

What shall we make of that? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 13:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
  • That the birthdate, and the date his father moved to Kentucky, both vary among reliable sources. (Your quote from Meyer clearly implies 1780.) Avoiding the subject is probably in order; it really doesn't matter.
  • Johnson studied law under two men who were at the time Professors at the Seminary. There is no surviving record of his actually being enrolled, but those records are incomplete (the records after 1802 don't matter; we know he was out of school by then). Contemporary sources say he studied at the seminary before he studied law, which was not then normally done in school. (In short, this may be a slight exaggeration of his background; or it may be that the records have been lost.) Let me think to see what we can say. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible sources

I'm going to my local college library this afternoon, and am going to try to pry out of JSTOR the following articles:

Also ran across these which aren't in JSTOR:

  • Dissertation which discusses RMJ.
  • Jacksonianism and the Promise of Improvement by Daniel Walker Howe, which Google Scholar says mentions RMJ.
  • Let the Youths Beware

I may or may not be able to get all of these, the local university doesn't subscribe to all the journals in JSTOR. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Heh. Didn't get a single one. Sorry. I swear, this local college has the oddest choices in what they get from JSTOR and what they don't. I'll try to get to University of Illinois sometime. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
What's the title/author/etc. on the dissertation? If that's on ProQuest, I might be able to get at it. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 17:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
What's love got to do with it? The dynamics of desire, race and murder in the slave South by Powell, Carolyn Jean, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Amherst, 2002, 213 pages; AAT 3039386. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Darn. We must not subscribe to the right journal to get that one. Too bad. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 17:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The summaries above are mine. Aside from the Baptist college (in Meyer) and the question of William Smith, I don't see much. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bryan Station

The article Bryan Station has an image that could be used here: the famous incident of the women going out of the fort to get the water. However, The Kentucky Encyclopdia entry on Bryan Station says (p. 134) that this story was "long believed true but now relegated to legend." Alas. —Kevin Myers 16:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Great catch on both accounts. I think the incident still bears mention, even if we have to end it with "but this all proved to be legend." Wonder which source(s) TKE bases this on? Those sources might have additional pertinent details on this event. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 17:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
State historian James Klotter is supposed to be at my local library tonight. I hope to attend the appearance and see if I can ask him to clarify this point, since he was a co-editor for The Kentucky Encyclopedia. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Red vest

I have expanded the information about Johnson's trademark red vest; I have seen it mentioned in multiple sources, so it was apparently significant. However, I don't believe the information belongs in the lead, where it is presently located. I'm open for suggestions as to where it should go. Either discuss them here, or be bold and move it to a new location. Thanks. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)