Talk:Richard Dawkins/Archive 7

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Suggestions

Following is a list of my suggestions:

We need to isolate the atheism free thinking from this article. It needs a total spin off, generic atheism needs to be moved into Atheism, or Neo-Atheism, or the like. Book reviews, critiques and challanages that are sourced should be moved into another page. The remaining stuff specific to dawkins and atheism, should probably be further split off into its own page Dawkins on religion. This article is way to big as is, and is poorly organized. I'll start working on these in a week, if no one has any better suggestions.

Dawkins uses the term Cultural Christian to describe himself -- this should probably be somewhere in the article. Jones, Lawrence (2007-12-11). Atheist Dawkins Calls Himself a 'Cultural Christian'. Christian Post Reporter. Retrieved on 2007-12-30..

And there is a new article I've created Out Campaign, which should probably be linked to the Bright, neo-humanism, and the pink invis. unicorn through a Modern Atheism (1980 onward), or Neo-Atheism, WP:PORTAL.

Oh yes, above submitted by User:EvanCarroll. EvanCarroll (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi EvanCarroll. Thanks for the suggestions. As you can imagine this article has been worked on by lots of editors, and although no article is perfect it's GA and in relatively good shape. Getting a consensus on major surgery would be very difficult I think. Apart from "too long" and "poorly organised" which seem rather subjective, and no ref to cultural christian (which is in fact already in the article) can you identify any specific problems? NBeale (talk) 06:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The article is only 50Kbytes. That is not too big, but I agree that there is plenty of room for improvement in how the information is organized. Rather than factor out a subject, I think that a better approach is simply to delegate more of the "book tour" media such as interviews to the corresponding book pages. We still have to summarize his assertions, but some of the media-oriented content (by that I mean the quotes) can be delegated.--75.37.14.196 (talk) 11:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

why don't you guys who have hijacked this page think that the neutrality is disputed when it is so obvious from the discussion page that it is?

the banner says neutrality is disputed. see discussion page. That is perfect for this page. how is it not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.217.88 (talk) 15:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Darwin's Rottweiler

I'm fairly certain it was Charles Simonyi, not Alister McGrath, that first called Dawkins that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.40.111.195 (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Censorship: Why was this removed

I placed a point about Professor Dawkins' debate with David Quinn which was removed, could I ask why this was? I feel the only reason for this is censorship because Professor Dawkins' was defeated in this debate, and those people who support his view do not want this to be known on his page. I will add this point back if no debate on the issue is raised. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.136.131.87 (talk) 13:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

As the person who deleted it, let me explain. Not censorship, but because: (a) we don't need to mention every minor media appearance, especially as the article already suffers badly from trivia-stuffing, and (b) the three sources given were all blogs, and therefore not reliable sources. I imagine the opinion that "Dawkins was defeated" is also based on those blogs, not on the verifiable facts or a balanced assessment - but that's just speculation. My motive for deleting was as stated. Snalwibma (talk) 14:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I've now read the transcript of that debate, and in my opinion David Quinn comes across as a religious faith-head that basically says, "I believe in God because I believe in God, and arguments are not of interest". Two of the sites that claim that Dawkins was defeated are rah-rah Christian sites - what else can they say, "opps, Dawkins won the debate, there goes our entire raison d'etre"? The third site was more neutral, the Dawkins-negative headline not in keeping with the contents of the small comment for some strange reason. Anyway, whether that debate should be mentioned in the article or not is no big deal, but those three references are very slanted, and the claim that Dawkins "was defeated" in the debate is delusional (God delusional?) --RenniePet (talk) 19:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
You are not exactly a poster-child for neutrality, with your 'rah-rahs'. Why not include a link to the debate, and allow listeners to make up their own minds? 62.17.33.130 (talk) 14:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
This is why most biologists should NOT engage in formal debates with creationists. They need no evidence for anything, not for the creation of the Universe or for judging the winner of a debate. Imagine Reason (talk) 21:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no evidence at any stage in the debate that Quinn is a creationist. 62.17.33.130 (talk) 14:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Deschner Prize

After being voted one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine we have Dawkins "awarded awarded the Deschner Prize, named after Karlheinz Deschner.[1]" This seems to be a very minor non-notable prize with about 400 GHits (there is another completely different Descher Prize for music which complicates things) which seem to be mostly blogs, youtube and private websites. Unless someone can demonstrate that it is remotely in the same league as the other awards and recognitions I think we should take it out. NBeale (talk) 06:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Just what I said several months ago! I see, however, that you have had the courage of your convictions and have done the deed. Thanks. Snalwibma (talk) 07:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I can sort of half-read German, and the reference talks about a public ceremony with Dawkins' participation where the prize will be presented along with a monetary amount of €10,000 ($15,000). Sounds good enough for me to be included in the article. --RenniePet (talk) 09:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
PS. NBeale wrote on his/her edit summary "Deschner Prize seems very minor and lacks reliable sources" (my emphasis added). But there was a "reliable source" (in German), and other sources are easily found, for example this http://www.deschner-preis.de/ and this http://blip.tv/file/425979 . I would like to restore the reference to this prize; will do it tomorrow if there are no objections. --RenniePet (talk) 10:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
No objections from me - I'm just wary of adding too much cruft, and I wondered if the D Prize was no more notable than the latest appearance on TV chat-show X. Snalwibma (talk) 10:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the website of the prize counts as a reliable source, not does a clip posted on a youTube-type site. I don't of course deny that he won this prize, but I don't think it is remotely notable. Since I am an opponent of Dawkins I suppose I shouldn't object if getting a trivial prize from a fringe fanatic is the last thing mentioned ($15k wouldn't make much difference to Dawkins) but as a WikiPedian I feel we should maintain some standards, even in articles about our opponents. What do other people think? NBeale (talk) 20:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
One man's "fringe fanatic" is another man's guiding light? And if this was such a "trivial prize" and "$15k wouldn't make much difference to Dawkins", it was rather nice of him to show up, don't you think? :-)
Seriously, and with a disclaimer about my limited understanding of German, it seems like it was a well-organized event, with simultaneous video projection, implying a fairly large hall. It was held at the University of Frankfurt, who I doubt would be willing to convene an event held by a "fringe fanatic". And although the prize is named after Karlheinz Deschner, it was awarded by an organization called the Giordano Bruno Foundation. (Giordano Bruno being a name that should give all good Christians a good case of bad conscience.) Also, the reference currently on the article is not for the the prize organization itself (although it may be associated with it - someone better at German is welcome to look into it).
I've now watched Dawkins' acceptance speech (about 25 minutes). Video quality is attrocious, but the speech was great. Can we justify adding that link to the article? --RenniePet (talk) 21:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The Giordano Bruno Foundation seems to be a non-notable toy of Deschner's patron Herbert Steffen. The point is that the lack of 3rd party coverage in reliable sources strongly suggests that the event and the prize are non-notable. And you can be very fringy and still rent a room at a university, esp if you are a well-connected industrialist, invite a famous guest, and pay cash. NBeale (talk) 10:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
It is exceedingly hard to find out anything about this prize. Almost nothing outside the Foundation's own website, and a mention on the Dawkins site. Lack of easily unearthed references elsewhere suggests to me that this is something we should quietly let go of. I can't see what it really adds to the article, and to the reader's understanding of RD. Apologies for the dithering! Snalwibma (talk) 10:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Based on the value "Deschner Prize" brings to the article, the research by NBeale and Snalwibma strongly indicates delete. --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggest we remove it from the article and link the video in the external links as en example of Dawkins' recent speeches.--Svetovid (talk) 12:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think we should keep it. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 08:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Internet notability

A recent survey indicates that Richard Dawkins is the 3rd most mentioned Briton on the Internet. See also [1], [2]. While it would violate NPOV to call him "great", and perhaps violate VP to call him "popular", this finding concerning - well, fame I guess you could call it - is interesting, and yet I didn't add this discovery to the article for two reasons.

Firstly, I couldn't think where to put it. Secondly, it occurred to me that it's not necessarily a worldwide-perspective thing. I mean, the Internet is worldwide, but where he ranks relative to other Britons is selective.

On the other hand, the researchers explicitly noted in the links I gave above that his was an anomalous case, since it was almost all musicians, and the rest were footballers, politicians and so on. Specifically, he is the only non-musician in the top 10.

On the other hand again, we do already have a lot of material that indicates just how noticeable he is. (For those of you who are interested, RD's web site had this as a story, the author being pleased that a speaker for atheism had, at last, been shown to be pretty high-profile. Well, you can read it your self - it puts it better than I do.)

I want it to be a matter of discussion as to where at all it should go and, if so, how to phrase it. Oh, and are both of these sources worth including? I wasn't sure which was the more notable. 129.67.53.232 (talk) 18:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

We need some third party reliable sources writing about it.--Svetovid (talk) 20:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Good point. The best I could manage is this, which is scientists worldwide from the same survey as the aforesaid, namely Garlik/QDOS. It shows Dawkins as the 2nd highest "scientist" worldwide. (The highest one is a French economist.) I can't find a list for Britons. Incidentally, a correction to my previous post: the Dawkins praise was actually from the New Humanist link; the RD site just reposted it, as it does with many articles on all sides. On the reliability front, maybe we should forget about it. Or maybe not. I don't know what people make of my third URL. 129.67.53.232 (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The fact that someone is often mentioned doesn't mean they are popular. There are 1.9M GHits for Richard Dawkins but over 6M for another widely read espouser of evolutionary ideas - who indeed got many more votes in his time. (But if you add the search term "idiot" the disparity is much less :-) All this "proves" is that this kind of data (which can be WP:OR and fancruft - or the reverse) is pretty meaningless and should be left out. NBeale (talk) 22:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I explicitly distinguished popularity from notability, but I take your point that this stuff isn't precise enough to be worthwhile. Your method of estimating the frequency with which people are disparaged leaves much to be desired, but that's besides the point, as is the matter that Hitler's espousal was of ideas that contradicted the evolutionary science of his day as much as that of today, since he rejected natural selection for Lamarckism, just like Stalin. Anyway, I'm digressing. I accepted the first objections, let alone any later ones. So we have agreement here. 129.67.53.232 (talk) 16:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Moyers Interview

I was kind of curious about the quote attributed to Dawkins in the Moyers interview. I was under the impression he had more certitude than the quote attributes to him. After reading the text of the interview, I think the given quote subtley misrepresents what he actually intends. The quote leaves one with the impression that Dawkins thinks that the evidence for evolution is 'circumstantial'; that is; convincing, but ultimately ambiguous. After reading the full text of the article, his view seems much stronger than that suggested by the quote.

Full quote includes:

"Huge quantities of circumstantial evidence. It might as well be spelled out in words of English. Evolution is true. I mean it's as circumstantial as that, but it's as true as that."

The omitted bit suggests to me this: Most researchers like Dawkins, only want to talk about such things as function and evidence within a clearly defined context. In other words: all evidence will be 'circumstantial' to some degree or other. When Dawkins uses a phrase such as 'masses of circumstantial evidence' he is expression a conviction as strong as that expressed by a layman using the word 'true'. Dawkins is as sure of evolution as he is of anything. The way Dawkins uses 'circumstantial evidence' may be the same manner in which he would say his belief in the World Trade Center was based on 'masses of circumstantial evidence'. Omitting the full text of the quote makes the quote much clearer, but it also suggests that Dawkins opinion is more tentative and qualified than it actually is.

On a slightly different note, I took a quick look at the editing achives. Good Lord! I can't imagine how the editors have been able to wade through all that crap and end up with a decent, synoptic article. The editorial point on criticism is well made, though. As an atheist, Dawkins specifically repudiates God. Therefore all critcism that takes issue with that fact is simply moot. Consider the wikipedia article on Mohammed. It is relevant to describe his specific monotheism, but it is hardly relevant to catalog all the various other monotheists, polytheists, and atheists who can be expected to disagree with him. In declaring him a monotheist, one has already and implicitly classified his views as antithetical to those.


Enqualia1 (talk) 15:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

77.99.214.253 (talk) 14:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

ELs (again)

Okay... so there seems to be a movement afoot to reduce the number of external links in articles (WP:NOT#LINK and all that) but I really think the links we used to have were extremely useful. I have put this on talk before but, despite no discussion taking place, someone has been removing ELs faster than I can restore them.

So... what do you guys think? To EL or not the EL? Mikker (...) 10:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

South Park

I know it's hardly as important as the rest of his work, but is it worth mentioning that 'he appeared' in the South Go God Go. According to that article he has commented on it. Maybe some sort of In popular culture section. John Hayestalk 21:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and rejected -- see page archives. Cheers, Joe D (t) 21:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Seemingly at length. Probably best. Thanks. John Hayestalk 22:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The gene-centred view

This topic is well covered in the "Evolutionary biology" section, but in places this is quite technical, e.g. "[Dawkins] is sceptical about non-adaptive processes in evolution (such as spandrels)" Now User:AC+79 3888 has just removed some simpler text, with only an automated summary to explain the edit: "His common theme in The Selfish Gene and many of his other works is that we are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines and that the term "species" is very handy for classification, but is only plays a minor role in evolution." In what way is the deleted material wrong, please? IMO the first bit, at least, is a good summary and could well be retained. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The text in question was supplied without references to establish its veracity. This, I feel, is important, because, as someone who has read all of Professor Dawkins' works, I disagree with the sentiments regarding the importance of "species"; I feel that it represents Dawkins as treating the concept in far more trivial a manner than he actually does. Moreover, the piece in question was written in an un-encyclopaedic, colloquial manner ("handy for classification"). AC+79 3888 (talk)
Thanks for the explanation. I agree that the reference to "species...only plays a minor role" is a gross simplification, but is there a way to provide a simple introduction to the section? --Old Moonraker (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that there could well be an easy way of emphasising Dawkins' view that the gene is the unit of selection, which could make reference to his opposition to group selection without at all discussing the species concept. There is already a relatively well explained section on memetics, so I would doubt that that needs any simplification. Anyone else have a view on the matter? AC+79 3888 (talk)
In fact there is just such a thing. Dawkins' coined the term God's utility function to express just this point. Fred Hsu (talk) 02:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This guy has no children?

What a shame--for the gene pool! Imagine Reason (talk) 21:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I think he does actually... Mikker (...) 09:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
He has one daughter. Her name is Juliet. Here is a letter he wrote to her when she was younger, which appears in his book A Devil's Chaplain. AC+79 3888 (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, he has one daughter. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 07:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

'Humanism' with a capital 'H'

In the article Richard Dawkins was called a 'secular humanist'. I removed 'secular humanist' and replaced it with 'Humanist'. 'Humanism' (with a capital 'H' and no adjective such as 'secular' or 'religious') is a lifestance and it is naturalistic, scientific, and secular. Thus, adjectives such as 'secular' are unnecessary. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Dawkins is also a vice-president of the British Humanist Association, which promotes Humanism (life stance). Thus, it would be more accurate to call him a Humanist. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 05:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, his views are openly related to secular humanism. He is an honorary associate of the National Secular Society. He also contributed an article here on the topic of "Why I Am A Secular Humanist". Moreover, his being a secular humanist is not at all incompatible with his vice-presidency of the Humanist Association, as that is an umbrella organisation encompassing humanism of all types. AC+79 3888 (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Some prefer the term Humanist (capital 'H'), without any qualifying adjective. The term secular humanism emphasizes a non-religious focus, whereas the term Humanism deemphasizes this and may even encompass some nontheistic varieties of religious humanism. Dawkins emphasizes a non-religious focus. Now I think calling him a secular humanist would be more accurate. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 05:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
It's less ambiguous to call him a secular humanist, particularly as he's a member of such an organisation. (As opposed to, say, a religious humanist or a Renaissance humanist.) Autarch (talk) 09:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Need for semi-protection?

There seems to have been a fairly sweeping increase in the amount of vandalism to the page of late. Does anyone else think that maybe it should be semi-protected, or is that an overreaction? AC+79 3888 (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

No, that is not an overreaction. The page should be semi-protected. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree, though it is amusing to page through the edit history and look at the vandalism. It's funny, really, how these people fail to see the irony of their actions. (Einamozam (talk) 14:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC))

Weasel words?

The article states: "He is an outspoken antireligionist, atheist, secular humanist and sceptic, and he is a supporter of the Brights movement." Why are these things considered "outspoken"? What makes someone outspoken? Also, I left the title of this section plural to account for any other such instances. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.233.26.200 (talk) 23:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Dawkins is an outspoken antireligionist and atheist. However, he is not an outspoken secular humanist. I will make necessary changes. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Retirement

Should there be any mention that he will retire from his post in September of this year? Canadianism (talk) 02:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think it should be mentioned. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Featured article candidate

I have nominated this article for the FA status. Other users are welcome to contribute. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 07:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Good work. --RenniePet (talk) 14:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I've read through the article and made some adjustments to wording and punctuation that I think make it read more smoothly. The article looks pretty comprehensive and well-sourced. While I'm no expert on Dawkins, unless some substantial information is missing, I see no reason why the article should not be given Featured Article acknowledgment. Nihil novi (talk) 10:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Don't nominated articles have links to nomination page from article's talk page? Where is it? Fred Hsu (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

atheistdelusion.net link

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result of the discussion was not to add the link to the article. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 12:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I added an external link to atheistdelusion.net on this article which has subsequently been removed. I believe this link to be relevant as it is a site set up in response to the works and literature of Professor Dawkins. I believe it to be necessary as Wikipedia articles are to be objective, and this is the first external link to an opposing viewpoint. The site has links to many relevant articles and audio files including a link to the Dawkins-Lennox debate, and a discussion between Dawkins and McGrath (one of his most prominent opponents). Thus for the sake of both objectivity and completeness I believe this link should remain, and so shall reinstate it on or after 10:00 GMT if by then there are no compelling arguments to the contrary. Pete g1 (talk) 09:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The link is not relevant. It is not a major website and we cannot include this link here. I would like to know the views of other users. I am removing this link. If majority of users agree to include this link, then the link will be included. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 13:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I took a quick look at the site and it struck me as nut-case stuff, although somewhat more articulate than most sites of that kind.
As for whether the link should be included or not, I don't care much one way or another. There is one line of (simplistic?) thought that says that if an article contains lots and lots of negative feedback about the subject, then ha, ha, the subject must be wrong. But another line of thought is that the more negative feedback there is about a topic, the more likely it is to be correct! That's because the huge negative response is an indication of how well the original argument made the targeted audience squirm, and feel compelled to defend their obviously shaky positions. :-) --RenniePet (talk) 13:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Richard Dawkins is the world's leading atheist and one of the world's leading biologists. He is controversial and confrontational. It is customary on Wikipedia to put links to critical sites on the pages of controversial public figures. Certainly Wikipedia pages on any 'leading creationist scientist' such as Michael Behe or Francis Collins has external links to one off articles by evolutionists and atheists that are critical. Atheistdelusion is not a one off article nor a wacky creationist site. It is merely a conglomeration of links to articles and audios critical of Dawkins. From what I can see it is the most relevant site on the entire web for anyone who wants to read views critical of Dawkins. What have we to be afraid of on Wikipedia in simply providing our readers with a place to find opposing views to a particularly well known and controversial evolutionary scientist like Dawkins? In the interests of simple fairness at least one link like this should be on Dawkins's page. Journalist492 (talk) 15:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Francis Collins would be appalled by the label 'leading creationist scientist': he is a "theistic evolutionist" and an opponent of the ID and creationist movements. But I can find no criticism of his religious views on his page. Michael Behe is a totally different case: there is scientific criticism of him. --Robert Stevens (talk) 15:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Looks like User talk:Journalist492 you have yourself tried to post a link from RD to this site previously and had the explanation on your talk pages User:Masterpiece2000 has again provided here as to why it is not appropriate and which I fully concur.Tmol42 (talk) 16:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Robert Stevens, if you re-check Francis Collins's page you'll see an external link to a single essay by Sam Harris (atheist) in which he "delivers a scathing review of 'The Language of God,' a new book by Human Genome Project head Francis Collins that attempts to demonstrate a harmony between science and evangelical Christianity." If Wikipedia approves of a link to an atheist critiquing a book by a leading respected geneticist who believes in God, why won't approve of an external link on Richard Dawkins's page critiquing his book 'The God Delusion'? Journalist492 (talk) 17:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I missed that book review on the Collins page (and, arguably, it doesn't belong there anyhow, but should really be on the page that's dedicated to the book: however, that page is currently just a stub). I have no objection in principle to links critical of Dawkins (and there are already plenty of those, as references: the article makes no secret of the fact that there are notable people who disagree with him). But "external links" (especially in a featured article) are supposed to lead to high-quality reputable articles which provide further insight into the topic: and, frankly, that site is garbage. Maybe some of the stuff in the links on that site are worthwhile, but the main text is typical creationist fraud: "A certain Mr. Kettlewell's experiments with moths were discussed. Various shapes and sizes of horses were portrayed in a smooth and convincing sequence which, so I was told, mirrored exactly what palaeontologists had found in the fossil record. I don't remember much else, but I imagine that Archaeopteryx, Lucy the Australopithecine, homology and Darwin’s finches were all rolled into the mix somewhere... Through reading Evolution a Theory in Crisis, Icons of Evolution, Darwin on Trial and Darwin's Black Box - among many other books on the subject, both for and against - I discovered that all the textbook 'evidences' for Darwin's theory of evolution were at best inconclusive and at worst, flawed (and in some cases completely fraudulent)". Those sources have long since been debunked. Creationism and ID don't belong here, even as external links. --Robert Stevens (talk) 18:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Creationist Ken Ham has a whole 'external links' section on his page entitled 'Critical of Ham' - four links. It's strange that Dawkin's page has no such external links! (Peter Fleming) 13th March 2008
Comparing Richard Dawkins (a promoter of actual science) to Ken Ham (a promoter of ludicrous crackpottery) is not exactly helpful, or relevant. --Robert Stevens (talk) 18:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I believe your last comment runs contrary to one of the five pillars - "Wikipedia has a neutral point of view". I would be happy to include the link to atheistdelusion.net in a sub-section of external links entitled 'Critical of Dawkins'. Pete g1 (talk) 22:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
This comes up a lot in discussions involving creationism/ID. The relevant policies are WP:UNDUE and WP:RS. NPOV doesn't commit Wikipedia to remaining neutral between mainstream science and fringe beliefs (or even to mention such beliefs in articles that don't specifically cover them), nor are we obliged to treat fringe/extremist sources as reliable. --Robert Stevens (talk) 23:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE#Undue_weight says that view points held by an extremely small minority should not be included. However the Christianity article says that there are between 1.5 and 2.1 billion 'adherents' to christianity and the Islam article quotes between 1.1 and 1.8 billion Muslims worldwide. These are both monotheistic religions and a belief in a God is intrinsic. With a world population of 6.6 billion, and taking the lower end of these stated statistics (i.e. 2.6 billion people who claim to be of one of these two religious viewpoints) leads to the statistic that at a bare minimum 39.4% of the worlds population believe that there is a God. This is by no means an extremely small minority. Atheistdelusion.net was created as a response to Dawkins' "The God Delusion" which is heavily critical of the belief in God. That is why an external link to it is relevant. Pete g1 (talk) 23:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Creationism/ID is not synonymous with "Christianity". It is a minority/fringe viewpoint, a pseudoscience, rejected by all but a tiny percentage of scientists and a minority of Christians, and detemined to be unscientific in a court of law. And that is a creationist/ID site. Responses from "mainstream" Christians are mixed up with the usual crew of liars and loons (Johnson, Sarfati etc). Not a reliable source. --Robert Stevens (talk) 00:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Well! I agree with Robert Stevens. I think User:Pete g1 should study WP:RS. The link atheistdelusion.net supports creationism/ID. We cannot include any source which supports pseudoscientific theories. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 02:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps, Robert Stevens and Masterpiece, you would consider the inclusion of external links to articles by people who you consider mainstream Christians - whether scientists, scholars or researchers. So, what of a section called 'Critical of Dawkins' in which links are posted to articles by Anthony Flew, Francis Collins, Peter Harrison etc.? Journalist492 (talk) 11:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Read the archives of this talk page, and you will see that the question of including a separate "criticism" section has been discussed at length, and the consensus is against such a thing - see, most recently, here. Criticism is already woven into the fabric of the article, and several prominent christian critics are mentioned by name, with footnotes and links. The "external links" section is deliberatly a short list of key resources. If you can come up with anything suitable for inclusion (wide enough coverage, important enough, etc - regardless of its point of view), go ahead and add it. But I do think we need to be very wary of opening the floodgates to every-little-bloggish-website-that-happens-to-mention-Dawkins - again, regardless of whether it's pro or anti. Snalwibma (talk) 11:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Snalwibma. You speak of 'consensus' but if you do a little research you'll find that Svetoid is an atheist, Masterpiece2000 is a humanist with a naturalist worldview and Robert Stevens is an evolutionist. We're not really talking about a broad unbiased 'consensus' - rather a simple case of opposition to a section openly critical of Richard Dawkins from people who favour Dawkins's worldview and support for such a section from others who are theists. Theists appeal to Wikipedia's 'neutrality' while atheists appeal to Wikipedia's commitment to 'the mainstream'. Are there any 'neutral' editors who could give a more dispassionate view? Journalist492 (talk) 12:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
...Whatever happened to "assuming good faith"? There are several entirely legitimate arguments against the inclusion of that particular website (including the fact that it's the personal website of a non-notable person). My own primary concern here is that Wikipedia shouldn't be directing readers to sites that contain blatant falsehoods such as "evolution is wrong because mutations cannot increase information" (a creationist lie: mutations can and do increase information). I am a "truthist", rather than a "falsist". And Wikipedia is, first and foremost, an encyclopaedia. --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
WTF? Journalist492: There is indeed a consensus. That does not mean that everyone agrees with everything, but that some of us have agreed to disagree but to let the majority decision stand. For your information, I am an atheist, a humanist with a naturalist worldview and an "evolutionist" (i.e. a scientist). Does that disqualify me from editing this article or having an unbiased view? Please refrain from what is very close to a personal attack on your fellow-editors, and stop trying to push your anti-scientific point of view. Yes, this is a controversial subject in some people's eyes - and there has been a sterling effort over several years to maintain the balance and impartiality of the article. Please contribute constructively or not at all. Snalwibma (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Like I said above, that web site is nut-case stuff. Including the link or not including it does not change that fact. Should Wikipedia include on the page about the Earth that there are nut-cases who claim the Sun rotates around the Earth? (They used to be called Christians, and burned people with opposing views at the stake.) --RenniePet (talk) 12:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, it's not only nut-case stuff, but the web site is set up as a deliberate attempt to fool search engines and attract traffic from people who search for Richard Dawkins and The God Delusion. Here's the HTML info from the home page:
<title>Atheist Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion: Books, Debates, Articles, Audios & DVDs on Atheism by Richard Dawkins</title>
<meta name="description" content="Richard Dawkins, the world's most famous atheist, makes his home in Oxford, England. It points to a wide array of books, articles, DVDs and audios on Richard Dawkins and The God Delusion.">
<meta name="keywords" content="richard dawkins, god delusion, god delusion by richard dawkins, books by richard dawkins, audio by richard dawkins, dvds by richard dawkins, debates by richard dawkins, articles by richard dawkins, richard dawkins atheist.">
As can be seen, despite the fact that the site is anti-Dawkins, to search engines it presents itself as a site with information about Dawkins. --RenniePet (talk) 12:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Very good argument by RenniePet. And, Journalist492, please assume good faith. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 08:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- RenniePet, the HTML is irrelevant to this discussion. Furthermore the URL of the website makes it abundantly clear that the site is not pro-Dawkins or his ideas - all the HTML does is to tell search engines that users who search for Dawkins may be interested in the content of atheist delusion, as the diligent mind interested in considering all the evidence from both sides would be. This is standard practice in the design & construction of websites, but as I said, the HTML seems to be of very little interest or relevance to the topic of this discussion.
- With reference to your previous point, I know a considerable number of people, (among them biologists, physicists, chemists and mathematicians, which encompass the four main scientific fields of both practical and theoretical study and research) who believe in God and who oppose Dawkins and his ideas. And my point here is this; there are scientists (myself among them) who believe in God, and who believe that He created the universe and everything in it. Evolution is by no means a universally accepted theory within the scientific community, while Dawkins' claims that there is no God, and that belief in a diety is a delusion, is even more widely critisized (see Alister McGrath's The Dawkins Delusion?). Thus I suggest that the content of atheistdelusion.net is not 'nut-case stuff', but rather that it promotes intellectual material in opposition to Professor Dawkins' ideas. Pete g1 (talk) 01:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
There is a lot of criticism of Dawkins in the article. This article is primarily an article about Dawkins and his ideas. Some critical analysis of his ideas is of course acceptable, but should not dominate. I know some people think he is the "antichrist" and will not be happy until the article consists solely of criticism, no matter how marginal, but that is not the purpose of the article. The site under discussion does not add to our understanding of Dawkins, it simply spoon feeds us some criticism, some intellectually valid, some not. And Pete, you are simply wrong in your claim that evolution is by no means a universally accepted theory within the scientific community. It's critics sit very much at the margin of science. You also appear to be taking the common creationist error - evolution (and science in general) has nothing at all to say about the existence or otherwise of God. That is a question of philosophy and theology. --Michael Johnson (talk) 00:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the link promotes intellectual material in opposition to Dawkins' ideas. User:Svetovid‎, User:RenniePet, User:Tmol42, User:Robert Stevens, User:Snalwibma, User:Michael Johnson, and I oppose the inclusion of the link. The link should not be included. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 03:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I too oppose its inclusion, as I think that it presents totally subjective, biased views on Dawkins and his work. Moreover, as has been pointed out, it attempts rather blatantly to trick search engines with misleading information on its content, and is something which Wikipedia should not be seen to promote, in my opinion. AC+79 3888 (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Is it really the role of Wikipedia to _promote_ (see above)? I was under the impression that Wikipedia is all about informing, not promoting. It does seem that you guys in the above 2 paragraphs are happy to suppress the information and opinions contained in the atheistdelusion site. This suppression could be called censorship in some circumstances. Where is the harm in letting Wikipedia users see the information presented by both camps and leaving them to draw their own conclusions? You seem unhealthily ready to 'convert' people to your beliefs or, at best, suppress the questioning of your views...Uk-david (talk) 23:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Now that is just being silly. Nobody is trying to censor or suppress atheistdelusion.net. Nor is anybody trying to "promote" (exactly what?). This is an article about Dawkins and his ideas. It should not be a collection of links to web sites that are simply compendiums of other writings. If there is material in athiestdelusion.net that can help us gain a better understanding of Dawkins, source it to the original. --Michael Johnson (talk) 05:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

To Pete G1: Sorry, I hadn't noticed you'd replied to my message above a couple of days ago.

> while Dawkins' claims that there is no God

That is not true. Dawkins is a scientist, and he knows that he does not have a scientific proof for the non-existence of a god. As a good scientist he knows it is impossible to scientifically prove there is no god.

You, and most who attack Dawkins, love to repeat again and again that "Dawkins claims that there is no God", and then you take him apart on that basis. I'll just repeat what I've previously written (twice) on the talk page for The God Delusion:

"But to a large extent this is a red herring. What most of The God Delusion is about is not at all the subject of whether a god exists or not, it's about how crazy it is to believe in the particular God that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in. How ridiculous the Bible is and how parents do their children a disservice by indoctrinating them with their religion. How nonsensical and dangerous in particular the fundamentalist American Christians and ditto Muslims are. That is the main message of the book, but those who feel targeted prefer to focus on the "does a god exist" business, thinking that gets them off the hook, despite the fact that Dawkins never claims that no god exists." --RenniePet (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Book "Everything You Know About God Is Wrong..."

I cannot find much information on the book Everything You Know About God Is Wrong: The Disinformation Guide to Religion [with Neil Gaiman (Collaborator) and Russ Kick (Editor)] which was recently added. It appears from what I have seen that it is just a collection which includes a piece or pieces from Dawkins' other works, in which case it shouldn't be listed. Does anyone know more about it? AC+79 3888 (talk) 09:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

As you say, it's by Russ Kick. He anthologises Dawkins's 2003 Gerin oil magazine article—just two pages in a nearly 400-page volume. Having Dawkins as a "collaborator" in the work seems to be a ploy by some online retailer, or the publisher. It should be deleted. --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I was also wondering about this, and my conclusion is much the same. We do not need to list every little contribution by Dawkins. Delete it. Snalwibma (talk) 10:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed documentary

I recently added a small piece on this, which was promptly deleted by User:Svetovid. Surely it should be mentioned somewhere, given the amount of public discussion there's been about it? Of course, if the concensus is that it should not, then I'm quite happy to leave it out. Regards. AC+79 3888 (talk) 10:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The stated reason for the deletion was that it was a recentism. If you disagree, post why. MantisEars (talk) 11:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, although of course I cannot guarantee the longterm historical significance of this film, I based my judgement to include it merely on the fact that it has been featured rather prominently in news lately. Dawkins himself has written quite extensively on it. Again, as I am not at all sure this qualifies it for inclusion, I would like some opinions. Thanks. AC+79 3888 (talk) 11:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I've given this a bit of thought, and I agree that it's best to wait for a while and see what the reaction is like to this film. Regards. AC+79 3888 (talk) 23:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)