Talk:Responsibility for the Holocaust

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[edit] Proposed move

This should be at something like Responsibility for the Holocaust because the current title, The Holocaust (responsibility) implies that this is a different thing from the The Holocaust. Any objections or other suggestions? howcheng {chat} 20:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Since there were no objections, this move is now done. howcheng {chat} 20:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poland

Sooner or later some crusader will come here asking why there is no Poland in the list. I advise creating some fair section in advance. Szopen 11:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure there will be one sooner or later... but I say - just wait for him. These nonsense accusations have been tried before but they are easy to rebut.--Jacurek (talk) 07:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't say the Poles were responsible for the holocaust, but certainly some Poles seem to have had a dislike for their Jewish compatriots, to the point of after the war continuing the process of expelling the holocaust survivors from the territory under Polish control, killing a few in the process.
By the way, I think the sentence above was a bit sexist Jacurek, it should be him/her or "the user" etc.
hope the info above helps. --Stor stark7 Talk 00:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


All your links are nothing new, all Jan T. Gross... here is just a few for you.... I hope the info will help :)--Jacurek (talk) 01:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [[11]]

[edit] Switzerland

There may be some people who are surprised to find Switzerland listed here. However, it was extremely imporant that the Swiss parliament set up the International Commission of Experts which came to the conclusion that official Swiss action sent Jews to the extermination camps. This does beg the question about other countries who refused Jewish asylum seekers permission to land, i.e. the SS St. Louis, resulting in the deaths of many of them. But the Swiss border guards did physically hand Jewish refugees to the Germans, well aware that they would be shipped to an extermination camp. Joel Mc 15:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rosenstrasse protest

I have tried to modify some of the claims made about this courageous protest. There is clearly more work to be done on the Rosenstrasse protest article itself which remains one-sided in its claims. Joel Mc 15:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


Footnote 18 really confuses the issue. The men were returned from a death camp where supposedly "everyone" knew "what was going on". A real soft spot in the holocaust story. Thanks for the information on an episode I had never heard about.

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Brussels, Belgium, May 1943.JPG

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BetacommandBot 15:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A bit on collective guilt should be added

Efforts to instill a sense of "collective guilt"

"In 1945 there was an Allied consensus—which no longer exists—on the doctrine of collective guilt, that all Germans shared the blame not only for the war but for Nazi atrocities as well."[12]

The British and The Americans considered the Germans to be guilty, using the terms "collective guilt", and "collective responsibility"[13]

The British instructed their officers in control of German media to instill a sense of collective guilt in the population[14]

In the early months of the occupation the Psychological Warfare Division of SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force) undertook a psychological propaganda campaign for the purpose of developing a German sense of collective responsibility.[15] Using the German press (which were all under Allied control) and posters and pamphlets a program acquainting ordinary Germans with what had take place in the concentration camps was conducted.

"During the summer of 1945 pictures of Bergen-Belsen were hung as posters all over Germany with 'You Are Guilty' on them."[16]

Later the U.S. army came to draw a distinction between those legally guilty and the rest of the population which was then merely considered morally guilty.[17]

A number of films showing the concentration camps were made and screened to the German public. For example "Die Todesmuhlen", released in the U.S. zone in January 1946, "Welt im Film" No. 5 (June, 1945). A film that was never finished due partly to delays and the existence of the other films was "Memory of the Camps". "...the object [of the film] was to shake and humiliate the Germans and prove to them beyond any possible challenge that these German crimes against humanity were committed and that the German people -- and not just the Nazis and SS -- bore responsibility."[18]

Immediately upon the liberation of the concentration-camps many German civilians were forced to see the conditions in the camps, bury rotting corpses and exhume mass-graves.[19] On threat of death or withdrawal of food civilians were forced to provide their belongings to former concentration camp inmates[20]

--Stor stark7 Talk 23:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On the statistics from the post war polls

We need someone to actually read the book the statistics come from, who can say what the U.S. interpretation of the numbers was.

Personally I think that perhaps with 3 million[21] Germans dead from the post-war ethnic cleansing the Allies and Poles had staged/were staging, and the millions of Germans in allied slave labor camps, many former nazi concentration camps in Poland used to slowly kill German civilians[22] the Allied dismantling of German industry that lasted until 1950, the mass-rapes by Russian and Polish soldiers, the "democratisation"[23], and the "collective guilt" propaganda campaign perhaps the Germans were not in a mood to give the "liberators" the answers they wanted? --Stor stark7 Talk 01:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)