Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Bull-Doser

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Comment: <sigh> This is a tough one. User:Karrmann does not have a stellar reputation - he's involved somewhere in just about every automotive-related dispute and has been sanctioned for vandalism and blocked on occasions himself. He's often on the right side of these disputes - but (like many teenagers) he has a love of stirring up trouble and a powerful need to win every debate. In contrast, User:Bull-Doser seems a pretty well meaning person - who goes to car shows and loves taking car photos for Wikipedia. There is strong desire to rid car articles of 'fair use' images from manufacturers brochures, so this is a valuable service. Sadly, most of the photos he takes are really terrible...to the point of being unusable. That in itself wouldn't matter if he didn't think they were pretty darned good and go around replacing existing photos with junk.

Hence what we have here is a well meaning photographer putting simply awful pictures into articles, and a generally disputative trouble-maker removing them - albeit with some justification. What is the answer? Well, in my opinion, Karrmann needs to take a strong lesson in WP:AGF and generally try to calm down and be more patient and diplomatic. Bull-Doser needs some photography lessons and to understand that we will be removing bad photos when they show up. He needs to understand that people are going to get quite upset when one replaces a reasonable photo with a terrible one - so removing his pictures from an article isn't necessarily vandalism.

From Wikipedia's perspective, since all involved are valuable contributors and blocking or other punishments would be counter-productive - I would suggest that Karrmann (and perhaps IFCAR) and Bull-Doser be requested (required?) to refrain from further direct communications with each other and that an impartial reviewer/mediator deal with issues with Bull-Doser's photographs. I think an established photography wiki-expert could help him become an exceedingly valuable contributor.

My apologies to those whose feathers are ruffled - but you did ask for comments. SteveBaker 16:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: SteveBaker raises some pretty good points. Karrmann does get hotheaded very often. However, this dispute has gone on for quite a long time (as I understand it) and I think it is well past the point of assuming good faith.

BD generally ignores most things posted on his talk page. Only when threats of a block are issued does he seem to notice.

There have been disputes regarding images on a regular basis, almost. I have said numerous times that it is not that hard to take a picture of an object that isn't moving. BD has been told numerous times that his images are usually of subpar quality. I have myself pointed out to him which of his own images are good and which ones aren't.

There have been a few other issues not related to images. For instance, for quite a while he would add a car's dimensions to an article and add an extra zero on the end (e.g. "121.50"). I told him numerous times to stop and it took him weeks to figure it out.

One more point is a little outburst of his, discussed here, where he issued a series of responses that made no sense whatsoever.

That's all I'll say for now. --Sable232 20:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I have not noticed problems with BD insisting on putting in his own images any time in recent history. If there is a problem (and I can't say whether there is or not) it's not in that area. IFCAR 21:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: One of the reasons why BD pisses me off so much is less of him and more of his edits. I always have to closly watch him, becuase it seems that whenever he touches up a page, he messes it up. And it doesn't help either that he never listens to us. We could tell him to stop until we are blue in the face, and he will still ignore us. As for images on his original talk page, I gave him tips for taking better images, which he too promptly ignored. I tried to be patient with the guy, but like Sable232 said, it has gone from good faith to where it is now a problem. And just for the record, I was blocked because I uploaded a bunch of fair images without finding out that they changed the fair policy, and an anal administrator blocked me just for that. And I have not been involved in every conflict. When you guys were having that problem with that Randazzo guy, I was no where near. As for IFCAR, the problem has changed from him inserting his bad pics, to him inserting our pictures innapproiately. See Toyota Celica, Pontiac Grand Prix, and Honda Civic for examples. His edit to Honda civic when he replaced the second gen image was pretty much my breaking point with him. [1] Karrmann 21:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

All of which is why I think you need to be detached from the process - and have a moderator interposed between you and BD. Sure, he's ignoring you because of your major outbursts and flame sessions. At this point, there is nothing you can say that's going to get through. So just stop talking - go through a moderator who can speak to BD calmly and dispassionately. I would hope that this process could result in someone stepping forward to take that job...but this is Wiki - anything could happen! SteveBaker 23:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

But that's just the thing. He doesn't listen to me, or any of us, or the Miata guys. What makes you think that he is going to listen to a moderator? Karrmann 15:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)