Talk:Religious belief

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The section bellow was once in the religion article together with the material that was mover here. The text is interesting, I wonder if it fits into the article. --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 17:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Neurobiological findings on religious belief

"In the year 2005, some views have been proposed by a scientific approach to the physiological effects of religious experience in the human body. Neurobiological research [1] coupled with modern medical imaging, especially tomography, suggests a few things: it appears that serotonin is generated in some areas of the brain of people having religious experiences, and may have specific effects. These include the ability of believers to better cope with stressful situations. Viewed from the perspective of evolutionary psychology, this would suggest that in an uncontrolled environment, religious faith would objectively increase fitness for individuals."
"These views lead to very original conclusions. For the first time, the faith becomes a materially identifiable phenomenon, thus non-deniable on an objective basis. As a reaction to environmental stress, it could be re-named as an efficient survival strategy within a non-controllable environment. Subsequently, the religious behaviour seems to be an especially human attribute, enabled by the human brain complexity. Because environmental uncertainty is unlikely to disappear, so are religious belief."
Reference
I think I see what you are getting at. It seems only weakly tied to belief (only the last sentence, really). I also note that it is a verbatim quote. On both counts, it should be re-written--summarized and tied in better. Thoughts? Sunray 07:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I've just decided that I will take a break of editing Wikipedia. I need to focus on some issues in real life right now. The quote will probably still be here when I get back, then I may think this further. May the Wiki be with you :-) --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 22:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the article referred in the footnote. The current summary looks inaccurate. The study didn't look at brain activity in people during their spiritual experiences. It found differences in biological structure for people scoring highly on particular personality traits, which come together under the heading of "self-transcendence." The study had nothing to do with "religious belief."
The remainder, from "and may have specific effects" are not conclusions drawn from the study, so this should not be footnoted. The part about evolutionary biology is speculation, built upon a misinterpretation of the study. It's an enormous stretch to "religious faith...objectively increas[ing] fitness for individuals." The whole section should be deleted. 216.162.196.34 09:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I have had a look at this article and it definitely provides a link between brain physiology and the tendency towards religious belief. Given that most other statements in this article are unsupported, it should most definitely be included. Mike0001 (talk) 11:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References and the adherence/rejection sections

The sections on reasons for adherence/rejection should be referenced in accordance with Wikipedia:Verifiability as well as Wikipedia:Citing sources, which reads, "The need for citations is especially important when writing about opinions held on a particular issue. Avoid weasel words such as, 'Some people say…' Instead, make your writing verifiable: find a specific person or group who holds that opinion, mention them by name, and give a citation to a reputable publication in which they express that opinion." I don't think we need to cite individuals by name, but each claim should have at least one reference, even if it seems obvious. Citing sources will help us avoid straw men, and the process of looking for sources should reveal which aspects of religion most influence the respective stances of believers and unbelievers.

Also, I think we should try to find sources dealing with religion in general, keeping in mind that the religion English sites will tend to focus most on is Christianity ("why I am a Buddhist" gives me 64 hits on Google, compared to 42,800 for "why I am a Christian"). And we should probably focus on the deciding factor(s) of adherence and rejection (while mentioning lesser factors as the article currently does). — Elembis 04:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I have tagged the article accordingly, though the tag implies that original research is acceptable, since it is ambiguous. Mike0001 (talk) 11:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Four of the five images in this article are related to Hinduism. That seems a little out of wack given that the page talks about all religious belief.. I will be replacing some of the Hinduism pictures with those of Christianity and Buddhism. -- Jeff3000 17:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now we have a single image for Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Much better representing different religious belief. -- Jeff3000 17:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Errors

There seem to be quite a few errors and ambiguities (e.g. universalism is also a christian belief that everyone gets saved, as believed by most liberal christians). Do we need expert help with the article?

[edit] Modern Reasons/Childhood Indoctrination

Under "Modern reasons for rejection of religion":

"Childhood indoctrination and ethics": Many atheists, agnostics, and others see early childhood education in religion and spirituality as a form of brainwashing or social conditioning, essentially concurring with the Marxian view that "religion is the opiate of the masses", with addiction to it fostered when people are too young to choose.

There's a lot wrong with this.

First, religion is the opiate of the masses should not be in quotes -- this is a misquote of Marx.

What Marx actually wrote is: "Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

Second, from that quote, it's clear that by the phrase "the opium of the people," Marx meant that oppressed people turn to religion because it relieves their pain, not that religion is an addiction.

Third, neither the correct nor the incorrect version of Marx here have anything to do with the topic at hand, which is "Childhood indoctrination and ethics." What's being addressed here is the view that religious belief is sustained, at least in part, through childhood indoctrination rather than rational choice. It's a real stretch to call this a "Marxian" view.

Fourth, to call this idea "Marxian" is not NPOV. The call this a "Marxian" view is to call those holding it "Marxists." Given the unpopularity of Marxists, and the fact that the application of the label is so strained, it's hard to see this as anything other than a smear.

I plan to remove this reference to Marx from this section. I may add a section under "Modern Reasons..." about Marx's critique of religion. I wanted to document my reasons in advance, and to hear any counter-arguments offered.

216.162.196.34 08:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "'I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens"

I've removed this quote, attributed to GHW Bush, as a blp concern, in response to comment on Talke: Separation of Church and State about its dubious sourcing. -- Vary | Talk 08:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IsGodReligious.com - Link-marketing?

I removed the link to IsGodReligious.com because it seems to be the Facebook or MySpace of creating your own religion. The link is to a website with no established resources on faith; it seems to be marketing and was added by someone not logged in. If anyone thinks it's relevant, please note why here rather than simply restoring it without explanation. Tiresias BC (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] article scope

The article makes no or a very weak attempt at distinguishing religions belief form adherence or religions faith in general. These concepts are very different indeed. Belief is an intellectual performance found in "literate", codified book religions, diametrally opposed to "pagan" religion where adherence is defined by the performance of rituals. Even in Christianity, you can easily be a practicing Christian (essentially, attend mass, take the eucharist) without any intellectual belief whatsoever. The article needs to be much more explicit about this distinction, and much material that is at present included is in fact offtopic. Many examples given concern religious worship, not belief. --dab (𒁳) 09:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)