Talk:Religion in Japan

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[edit] Athiesm in Japan

Although this article deals with religion in Japan, I think the number of Agnotic and Athiest memebers of Japanese society needs to be addressed. I would appreciate it if this request was taken seriously, and not treated with ignorant comments such as "athiesm is evil," "athiesm is a lack of faith," and etc. Perhaps if it is found through debate that this information is not pertinent to the article, perhaps a new article addressing Athiesm/Agnosticism in Japan should be created, or the information should be added to an already existing Athiesm/Agnosticism article dealing with the worldwide prevalence of these views.

Thanks, --67.177.170.218 (talk) 21:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Atheism isn't a religion, many Japanese people are religious and are finding that spiritual belief is a part of human guidance. And what's more is that this article constitutes the beliefs of people in Japan not ergo "lack of...". Furthermore since Japan does not take religious surveys because they respect people's beliefs it is no wonder that there are no estimates of the Japanese agnostic - if there ever existed such a person. Put simply there are no ways to tell if atheism even exists in Japan LOTRrules (talk) 14:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Japan's religion

I added Islam to a traditional religion part but did not change next part as Islam is new and has very small belivers. No need to panic :) Revth 17:14, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Panic from what? LOTRrules (talk) 14:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

someone has changed TodaijiDaibutsu0224.jpg IwashimizuHachimangu.jpg

to pictures of a penis. i have deleted the links until someone restores the original pics and links again.--Darthanakin 03:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Christianity is one of the most important and prolific religions in Japan, with upwards of 76% of the population being Christian. this part is clearly false, I shall delete it.--Darthanakin 03:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and have already taken the liberty. Thank you for removing the images, the problem seems to be fixed now, so I have reverted your removal. —INTRIGUEBLUE (talk|contribs) 03:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch Catholics

Are you sure that there was Dutch missionaries preaching Cahtolicism in the 16th and 17th century??

Yes. 213.172.254.73 00:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early Nestorianism

I read in some site that a mysterious peaceful religion arriving from China in the 1st millenium AD was a form of Christian Nestorianism. The site seemed suspect, but it also had lots of info on hiddenChristians.

[edit] Popularity

A popular prayer when in trouble is "Kami-sama, Hotoke-sama, dōka otasuke kudasai."

Actually no. This is akin to someone saying that a popular prayer in the United States is "Jeebus, Allah, Buddah, I love you all! Save meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" because they saw one episode of The Simpsons where Homer says it. The integration between Shintoism and Buddhism actually goes back a few centuries ago (cf. honji suijaku theory).

A Japanese schoolboy might well pray at a Shinto shrine to receive a chocolate for St. Valentine's Day, a Christian holiday.

I'm rather skeptical about this claim. How common are such shrines?

I would not call St. Valentine's a Christian holiday. It's date is selected after a christian saint, and the name recalls him, but apart from this that holiday has nothing to do with christianity and christian tradition. That holiday is entirely commercial.
Ditto. Came to the talk page wondering if somebody had pointed that out. Oh, and to the poster above: erm, yeah, Shinto shrines are abundantly present in Japan. How can you be sceptical of something you obviously have no idea about? 213.172.254.73 00:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction of another article

"Some churches in America take an active missionary role in converting Japanese in Japan, and America, but even in America, 97% of Japanese Americans adhere to Shinto and Buddhism."

This claim directly contradicts this from the Japanese American article

"Japanese Americans are typically members of Protestant Christianity. Only a small minority are also followers of Mahayana Buddhism, Zen Buddhism and sectarian Shinto."

These can't BOTH be right. I'm going to place a similar message on that article's talk page. I don't know which view is correct; maybe someone who knows better than me can fix this.

Rhesusmanrhesusman 17:20 UTC 17 April 2005

It's always hard to mince numbers with the syncretic outlook the Japanese have on religions, but you are right. Something doesn't seem to fit here. 213.172.254.73 00:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is Christianity mentioned so much?

I call attention to the statistics on NationMaster [4] (http://www.nationmaster.com) where they say the Japanese "observe both Shinto and Buddhist 84%, other 16% (including Christian 0.7%)" This says to me that Christianity in Japan is practiced by so few people that it should be moved to another category titled "Other Religions" along with shamanism and other cults. Cite me specific facts that show that the Japanese belive in Chrisitianity in equal proportion to the other two, otherwise I will make this change.--Scipantheist 15:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The section in question reads like a historical note. I don't think the fact that Christianity is not put at "other religions" means that "Japanese belive in Chrisitianity in equal proportion to the other two." -- Taku 16:50, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)
True, only 1% of the japanese population is christain 71.135.56.246 17:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't get it either. Christianity is really minor but there is more written about it than Shinto and Buddhism! The little note in other religions should be all that is needed in this article. For those interested a seperate article on history and situation of Christianity in Japan seems like the place for it. --Timtak 04:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I removed the large section - it came as quite a shock when I saw the article. I got rid of most of the info and added the links to other articles that discussed the religion in japan - also I removed it to the minority section where the minority relgions are discussed. LOTRrules (talk) 23:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Corrections

I've made several corrections to the Shinto and Buddhism sections. The facts I've cited are all strictly from the Lonely Planet Guide to Japan, so please consider carefully before deleting them. I am still concerned that there is a large bias on behalf of Christianity here. As far as I can tell missionaries have met with little success in Japan, and the only real christian influence is in the desire of some Japanese for a Christian marriage (perhaps because they admire the West). Let me know what you think. --Scipantheist 22:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think Taku is right. The article in no way suggests that large numbers of Japanese adhere to Christianity in the sense that Westerners would say someone adheres to Christianity. I do think it's fair to say that Christianity has had an historical impact on Japan out of proportion to the numerical strength of its followers today. My understanding is that Christianity actually did make substantial inroads (including the conversion of some daimyo) when the Portuguese first brought it in, but the bakufu at the time eventually wiped it out. This substantial historical presence combined with the Japanese propensity to do things like have Christian weddings even if they're not Christian warrant the religion getting its own section. Moreover, this article is in English, and a large proportion of the English-speaking readership might want to know how many Christians are in Japan and to what denomination they adhere. If this were the Japanese language version of the article, that might not be as important. That's my feeling on the matter. Rhesusman 0:15 UTC 25 April 2005

Let me be blunt. I consider Christianity to be an outside religion. You can argue that Buddhism is also a foreign religion, but the Japanese have had centuries to make it their own, and they have done so. As to the historical role of Christianity, I have read that many daimyos "converted" to Christianity just to trade with the Portugese. I will acknowledge that the Japanese like to have western style weddings, but clearly the number of actual christians has always been less then or around 1%.--Scipantheist 15:41, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Trust me, I'm the last person who would be inclined to be biased in favor of mentioning Christianity more than is appropriate. Christianity is an outsider religion to Japan, I would agree with you fully there. I'm simply saying that it has had an impact out of proportion to the number of people following it. According to Marius Jensen's The Making of Modern Japan, Catholics might have been as much as two percent of the population at the end of the sixteenth century. That may not sound like much, but that's a bigger percentage than today, and it must have meant something if the Tokugawa were THAT concerned with squelching it. I'm not disputing with you the percentage of Christians in Japan today is around one percent; the article says as much. The small size of a religion does not preclude its having a significant cultural impact. Jews are only one and a half percent of the population of the United States, but have had a disproportionate cultural impact. Christians in Japan may not have made quite as much a of a mark there as the Jewish community has in the United States, but the impact of Christianity on Japan is certainly greater than and fundamentally different from that of other foreign religions like Islam. Christianity is an outside religion, but it has been an important in ways that other outside religions have not and the article should reflect that. Rhesusman 10:10 UTC 25 April 2005

Well, popular opinion is against me on this. I still say that, in as far as Christianity has been influencial it has been for political reasons (such as the Japanese wanting to be like the West) and not for any truely religous reason. If you want to put it back as a main category, along with Buddhism and Shintoism, go ahead.

Well I don't want to put it back in the main category. I thought you wanted to reduce the size of the section. If that's not what you're after, than we really don't have much of a dispute here. Rhesusman 16:10 UTC 25 April 2005

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to do some more work on collecting information about Buddhism and Shintoism then, rather than trying to make less of the Christian contribution.

[edit] New Religions

I created a new wikilink in the new religions section to Shinshukyo. The Shinshūkyō are a fairly widespread phenomenon in Japan, and I think they deserve attention as their own article. I'll see what work I can do to start it. Any help would be most appreciated, as this one's going to be difficult to write NPOV. LordAmeth 12:06, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other Religions

I moved Christianity back under an Other Religions category. As stated in the discussion under Why is Christianity Mentioned So Much?, I don't think it is practiced by enough people in Japan to be considered anything other than a minority faith (<1% practicing). If someone would like to challenge the importance of Christianity with me, show me evidence that it is more important than religions like Islam in Japan.--Scipantheist 03:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Percentages of adherents

Is there any data (knowing how the Japanese love statistics) regarding practitioners of all faiths, divided by percent? Chris 21:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Valentine's Day

May have a Saint in front of it for some - Japanese are in it for the chocolate.

[edit] POV in article is horrible

This article needs to be rewritten. - ZenPupDog

What does that mean? --James 00:43, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
The article reads like some sort of Christian Missionary briefing and is out and out wrong. Japanese are both Shintoists and Buddhists - those percentages only reflect those who consider themselves one or the other and thus are offkilter. - Sparky 19:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree and I'm adding a tag to the Christianity section. Just look at this paragraph:

"Though Japanese Christians make up a small fraction of the population, they tend to be visible beyond their numbers. Its practitioners tend to be more devoted and proselytizing than other religions, and they attract sympathy among many young Japanese who view Western culture in a positive light. Furthermore, Christian organizations tend to give large amounts to charity, and have founded some important educational institutions such as the International Christian University, Kwansei Gakuin University and the Jesuit Sophia University."

I'm tempted to delete that on the spot, but I'll give people a chance to rewrite it, or add sources (but really, no sources can justify all of that). 199.126.137.209 06:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protestant vs. Catholic

  • In Japan today, most Christians are Protestant?

According to Japanese wikipedia, catholic is the most popular. I do not know furthermore and I do not care but I am just pointing out both of the statements can not be right. I assume artcile in native language is usually correct but not always.--Shoons 14:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese Buddhism

Buddhism is divided into three forms, the more orthodox and impersonal Theravada Buddhism, which is prevalent in India and Southeast Asia, and the more personal Mahayana Buddhism, which spread to North India, China, Tibet, and from there went to Korea, where it came to Japan. The third is Vajrayana Buddhism. From the beginning, the largest form of Buddhism in Japan was the Mahayana school.

Grammar issues aside, in what regards is Theravada Buddhism less "personal" than Mahayana Buddhism? This statement appears to be laced with opinion. I wanted to clean it up, but felt it more mindful to begin a discussion prior to editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.173.226.235 (talk) 15:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Or Allied Occupation

While Americans made up the bulk of the occupying forces after the second world war, would it not be better to refer to the occupiers as Allied forces, rather than American forces, since other nations were involved as well? Rayhol (talk) 02:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Content

This article is sorely lacking in a crucial aspect of the subject - the Japanese rejection of "religion" as such. The vast majority of people in this country, while they may attend Shinto festivals, pray at shrines, and be registered and eventually buried in a Buddhist temple, will, if asked, deny that they are religious, that they are observant, or even that they truly believe in the tenets or deities of either Shinto or Buddhism. There are aspects of Shinto and Buddhism which are seen as being integral to being Japanese, and taking part in a local street festival (matsuri) may be seen as no more "religious" than Guy Fawkes Day in England, or the rather secular St. Patrick's Day parades in the US and elsewhere.

The idea of being "religious" is, I think, associated more with the major Western religions than with the Japanese people's own practices, and with an idea of being devoted to a second identity (e.g. being Christian, Jewish, or Muslim in addition to being American, English, or French), and to a lifestyle and set of rules that differs from the secular norms within one's culture. Unlike the Abrahamic religions, Buddhism and Shinto don't ask anything (rules, prohibitions, lifestyle) that the Japanese don't already do anyway simply as part of being Japanese; in point of fact, they ask very little at all. There are no dietary restrictions, no expectation to pray every week or every day, let alone 3+ times a day... Furthermore, at least some Japanese I have spoken with have expressed an association of religion with ideology and with war and violence. Countless wars and conflicts have been fought between the Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and various sects of Muslims, and/or in the name of religion. State Shinto played a role in the militarism and ultra-nationalism of WWII, and I think there is, at least to some extent, a consciousness in Japan therefore of a rejection of that particular brand of religion.

Though syncretism is discussed, and the lightness with which Japanese take religion is alluded to (e.g. praying at a Shinto shrine for Valentine's Day; getting married in the Christian manner with a fake priest), I still think the article grievously misrepresents the status of religion in the minds of the Japanese people. There are a great many countries in the world where one can safely assume that a sizeable portion of the population is fervently devout and passionate about their religion (stereotypically speaking in any case, France, Spain, Italy for Catholicism; anywhere in the Arab world for Islam; etc.), and Japan simply is not like that. This is a very important distinction to make, particularly for the hypothetical average reader who may be quite attached to his or her own religious identity, taking it for granted that other people, even if they follow a different religion, will believe in it as deeply and passionately.

I am deeply sorry that I don't have any particular academic source from which to cite, but I am hoping that there are some Japanese religion experts here who will back me up. Surely there must be someone out there who's a true Japanese Religions major and will know of good sources to which to turn. LordAmeth (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Well you need to cite a source to tell us the info your talking about GuyFawkes. I mean ask anyone in your street if they are religious and they will respond "no". But on Sundays you see them at Church: going in or out... People don't want to be branded as "nuts". Most Japanese I'd say are religious. LOTRrules (talk) 12:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I think there should also be a mention of mizuko kuyo (memorial to the aborted fetus) and of pokkuri(sudden death)- and the rituals associated to it- here. As a matter of a fact, there should be a page for pokkuri! I don't understand why there isn't one (other than the one that links to Japanese sandals, which is beside the point in terms of importance)Esteloth (talk) 15:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] not helping

I am doing this paper and your page doesn't help at all!!!

[edit] a concerned reader