User talk:Refoh

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[edit] unWell hearing

When you created Wilheering Abbey how did you copy and paste? Because you created the most apalling page widening (a leading blank on each paragraph). I reverted to a non-page-widening version by copy&pasting properly from de:Benutzer:Refoh/Wilhering Abbey. If the version in your user page is more recent, feel free to post it instead but: do not re-introduce page widening and do not remove the maintenance tags. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 09:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Please forget my article on "Wilhering Abbey: A Short Giude" and delete it, because it is in no way "appalling", since it was approved by competent native speakers. Refoh (via e-mail).

You did not read my message above carefully enough. I used the word "apalling" only in respect of the page widening which you had created by putting a leading blank on the beginning of most paragraphs. The text itself looked fine, I am delighted to accept it on behalf of Wikipedia and, now that you have released it under the GFDL, I will resist any attempt to delete it! -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 16:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Thank you very much for your answer. But could you give me a chance to edit the article on Wilhering on my behalf *1*, because I am totally inexperienced in this matter. In addition to that I unfortunately misspelled the word Wilhering in the title, which should have one "e" only. By the way, I wanted to edit the (English) version in the German Wikipedia, which they did not accept, but put it in a sub-thing? -- Refoh (via e-mail)

I am very sorry, I did not notice the mis-spelling. Now that you point it out, I find that: we have had the Wilhering Abbey article for some time and that you attempted to add your text a little while ago. Unfortunately that also suffered from page widening and was poorly integrated with the existing article. A separate article is not allowed so I have converted Wilheering Abbey into a redirect.

Re *1* above: yes, aren't I giving you every chance to edit it? I have moved User:Refoh to User:Refoh/sandbox which is a more appropriate title for draft articles. Remember that all your past edits are available in the various article histories. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 18:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fork

It is a basic rule of Wikipedia that we do not allow content forks. We only need one article about Wilhering Abbey. Your material is probably excellent, so please add it to the Wilhering Abbey article. Do not your try and create a parallel article. None of your edits have been deleted: you will find them here and here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RHaworth (talk • contribs) 20:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

'But when I try to find it in the internet by entering the title "Wilhering Abbey: A Short Guide" I get a negative answer.' The internet is very big. Where did you enter the title? You cannot expect any search engine to pick up stuff instantly. But the first place to look for your own stuff is to click the "my contributions" link (top right on my screen) that is not a search but a direct access to the database and is always up to date. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 21:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Another thought: if you think you text stands-alone, why not post it to Wilhering Abbey on EditThis and link to that article from the abbey article here? -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 21:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet another thought: the abbey's website appears to be only in German. Why don't you offer them your article? They might even pay you for it! -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 10:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tidying

I have moved your text from Wilhering Abbey: A Short Guide (being an unencyclopedic title) to User:Refoh/sandbox. And as a special bonus, I have submitted the sandbox to Google! In fact I notice that Google has already seen two copies of your article. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 18:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wilhering Abbey

I initially removed the text of your article from the above because it looked as though that somebody had copy&pasted it in from somewhere else. I have since read some of the background, however, and now realise that it is your own article. It is an extremely good and informative piece, but I want to be sure that you are entirely clear about how Wikipedia works: for example, do you realise that it is not possible to retain authorship of a piece of writing or to put a signature to it? There are also some other things which I would like to make sure you know about. Please would you contact me by leaving a note on my Talk page: User talk:HeartofaDog? Regards, HeartofaDog (talk) 18:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


Thank you very much for your note. I am sorry not to reply earlier - it is a public holiday in the UK.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with your article - on the contrary, it is really good. There is no difficulty at all if you wish to integrate it into the brief existing article. But because you have put so much work in it, before you do so I want to be fair to you, and to be sure that you do understand that it is not possible to retain any title to it, or any control over the text, as Wikipedia articles are not "owned" by any one author. So for example your name will not appear on the article, and the text will be open for editing by all other Wikipedia editors - this sometimes causes distress to contributors who have put a great deal of effort into a specific article, as not all other Wiki editors are especially sensitive about what they do...
I noticed that User:RHaworth suggested that you place the article in its entirety on a website external to Wikipedia, to where it can be linked as an independent source. That is a very good suggestion, because in that way you can be sure that the article remains available as you wrote it and is credited to you, which it will not do as a Wikeipda article open to all editors. Have you considered, as he also suggested, whether the abbey would be prepared to host your article on their website as the English section? It would, mE, be very suitable for such a use.
Also, if you could add a list of the sources you used to compile it, that would be very useful.
If you would like a hand with the editing, please ask me - I would be very happy to help. I would have integrated the article myself, but as it is yours, it seemed polite to wait until you had had the opportunity to do it yourself. With best wishes, HeartofaDog (talk) 01.22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your answer and for your offer to help me with the tough job of editing an article in Wikipedia. I don’t want the abbey to host my article on its website, since it is in German only. I think, the first paragraph (“The Order”) is quite necessary, since an institution like a monastery cannot really be understood without its history in the context of the order it belongs to. I would be very grateful, if you were so kind as to help me. I don’t mind, if you integrate the article into the existing one in Wikipedia, or you place it on a website external to Wikipedia, or anything else. User: RHaworth gave me some good advice, but leaves the edition to me. If you are really so kind as to do that for me, I will be very glad and thankful. You can take the article from the German Wikipedia website under the entry “Benutzer: Refoh/Wilhering Abbey – Wikipedia”. Just leave out the name of the author (me) and the subtitle (“A Short Guide”), if necessary, and add the following list of sources. Here is the list of sources: Rudolf Guby, Das Zisterzienserstift Wilhering in Oberösterreich, Österreichische Kunstführer Bd. 4, Wien o. J. (1920) Amadeus Reisinger, Stift Wilhering/Donau, München 1939 Louis J. Lekai, The Cistercians, Ideals and Reality, The Kent University Press Dallas 1977 Zisterzienserstift Wilhering, Hg., Wilhering, Stift und Kirche, Wilhering 1983. Will you send me a note, please? Thank you and best wishes. Refoh (talk) 07:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


Dear Sir, Thank you a lot for your help. If you don't agree with the long paragraph on the Order you could perhaps take this shortend remark to the Order as Paragraph 1. I stripped the article on the Order down to a minimum. But I leave the decision to you. Thank you once again. I. An introductory remark to the Order Wilhering Abbey near Linz in Upper Austria belongs to the monastic order of the Cistercians. This name is taken from Cîteaux in eastern France, where a monastery was founded in 1098. In 1112 Bernard and some thirty companions joined the abbey of Cîteaux; three years later he became abbot of the new foundation at Clairvaux. Due to Bernard’s international reputation the order spread rapidly throughout Europe. More than 500 abbeys were founded by the end of the 12th century, and another 150 in the following century. Unfortunately the order lost approximately 460 monasteries during the Reformation, and in the Age of Enlightenment, when the Austrian Emperor Joseph II (1780-1790) dissolved 700 monasteries, among them twelve Cistercian abbeys. In spite of that, the number of vocations increased again after the Second World War – a trend that no longer continues in Europe. In keeping with the times the old monastic orders looked for new chances to engage in such Church activities as missionary work and education, as did the Cistercians. Refoh (talk) 13:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Editing guidelines

Welcome!

Hello, Refoh, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


The above, which is the standard welcome para for new editors, will give you some useful links on the mechanics of editing. "How to Edit Page" is probably the most useful one for you, as the text is already composed.

If I might add a couple of points:

  1. leave the summary introduction and add your text below
  2. break the text up into sections with sub-headings
  3. go through and LINK wherever appropriate - no need however to link years or common words
  4. because of the links to other articles, you can remove anything not directly relevant to the abbey itself: for example, the long introduction on the Cistercians is not necessary, because you can link to the main article on Cistercians
  5. don't add any signature
  6. do add some sources to the relevant section at the end if the ones you used are not already there

Please do ask me if I can be of more help, and good luck! HeartofaDog (talk) 13.30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your message received

I'll be happy to do my best with your article, and thanks for your note. Please give me a few days, however. The only thing on which I don't entirely agree with you is the introduction - I still think that, at least for Wikepedia, it will probably be necessary to abbreviate it severely, if not remove it completely - but I will look at it again. Thanks for the good list of references - very useful! All best wishes, HeartofaDog (talk) 00:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Sir, Thank you a lot for your help. If you don't agree with the long paragraph on the Order you could perhaps take this shortend remark to the Order as Paragraph 1. I stripped the article on the Order down to a minimum. But I leave the decision to you. Thank you once again. I. An introductory remark to the Order Wilhering Abbey near Linz in Upper Austria belongs to the monastic order of the Cistercians. This name is taken from Cîteaux in eastern France, where a monastery was founded in 1098. In 1112 Bernard and some thirty companions joined the abbey of Cîteaux; three years later he became abbot of the new foundation at Clairvaux. Due to Bernard’s international reputation the order spread rapidly throughout Europe. More than 500 abbeys were founded by the end of the 12th century, and another 150 in the following century. Unfortunately the order lost approximately 460 monasteries during the Reformation, and in the Age of Enlightenment, when the Austrian Emperor Joseph II (1780-1790) dissolved 700 monasteries, among them twelve Cistercian abbeys. In spite of that, the number of vocations increased again after the Second World War – a trend that no longer continues in Europe. In keeping with the times the old monastic orders looked for new chances to engage in such Church activities as missionary work and education, as did the Cistercians. Refoh (talk) 13:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC) 193.171.131.230 (talk) 13:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wilhering Abbey (cont.)

I've now added as much of your text as fitted - which was just about all of it, except for the general intro on the Cistercians, which doesn't seem right in this article.

Could you clarify the work and refs that are the sources of: the quotation from Gurlitt (and could you confirm what the final words are?); the anecdote about the girl and the farmhand starting the 1733 fire; and the "old print". Thanks very much, HeartofaDog (talk) 01:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you so much..

for your very kind note. If I ever visit Austria, Wilhering will be top of the list, and it would be a great pleasure to take you up on your invitation.

Thanks also for an enjoyable co-operation on the article, which is looking good, and much improved - I am still thinking about ways to include at least some of your background on Cistercians in Austria. If you have a moment, as the English Wikipedia is very picky about quotations, could you add the page number of the passage from Gurlitt, and also the name of the work + the page number for the anecdote about the 12-year-old girl and the 1733 fire? all best wishes, HeartofaDog (talk) 22:16, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi! thanks for the extra refs. I've added the information to the article - and when I have a bit more time I'll double-check the recommended way of doing it. All best, HeartofaDog (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
No problem - you're very welcome! I've redone the cites now as per the instructions, although as there's only a couple anyway it probably isn't really necessary. HeartofaDog (talk) 12:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)