Talk:Referendum

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] Meaning

A plebiscite is directed to all citizens, regardless of their franchise.

What does "regardless of their franchise" mean? ff


If I understand it correctly, some political systems require people to "earn" the right to vote. This right is called a franchise. This may be the acqusition of land, or citizenship, or simply their freedom (from slavery). The novel Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein uses this concept by requiring military service for the right of franchise.

[edit] Wording Question

However, French establishes another distinction. Plebiscite describes a vote on an individual whereas referendum refers to a vote on an issue. Here too, 'plebiscite' will be mainly used for un-democratic states where we are likely to find a cult of personality, and 'referendum' for democratic states.

Is this referring to an author or the French? Can someone please clarify? Nicole Javaly

[edit] Referendum vs. plebiscite

Is there actually any difference between a referendum and a plebiscite except the negative connotation that plebiscites are generally held by dictators? -Will231 (4 Mar, 2004)

There is not difference in MOST languages. However, in historical terms, plebiscites were held by a dictator and usually had no juridical effects (since they were staged or faked). So correlating the 0 juridical effects to a facultative non-binding referendum, sometimes this is called a plebiscite. However this specific conotation is used ad-hoc, and is not general. In general, they are the same. Warfare utf 22:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Republic of Ireland

While it is interesting to know how the constitutional changes are handled in Republic of Ireland, I don't really think it belongs to this article. IMHO this article should be left general with links to such things ... Any opinions? --Romanm 17:45, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Referendum vs Plebiscite

The convention described seems to be the reverse of what happens in Australia. My understanding is that we call it a plebiscite when it is advisory and a referendum when it is a binding constitutional matter. I believe the referendum to decide upon the national song was called a national poll. Can anyone comment?

[edit] Multiple-choice referenda and Switzerland

I don't understand what the article is trying to tell us. Multiple-choice referenda are, in fact, quite common in Switzerland, because one typically can vote on the referendum and on a counter-proposal drafted by the parliament. Now, if both fail to get the necessary support, neither is enacted. A tie-breaking question is applied in the case where both the referendum and the counter-proposal are accepted. The article seems to imply that the tie breaker applies when neither passes, which is wrong.

A further note on this: a facultative referendum passes if it gets the support of a majority of votes. An obligatory (mandatory) referendum needs not only an overall majority, but also needs to pass in a majority of cantons (the so-called Ständemehr). Lupo 10:17, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Some more: Citizen's initiatives are subject to the obligatory referendum, if they are considered valid by the parliament. An initiative can be rejected by the parliament as invalid for formal reasons, but also if it would demand changes contradicting international law or treaties. Tie-breaking in an obligatory referendum is tricky, because a double majority of votes and cantons is needed. If one option gets a majority of votes, but the other option gets the majority of cantons, the option is chosen where the sum of the percentages of votes and cantons in the tie-breaker question is higher. Lupo 10:26, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lupo, I'd like to improve the wording in the article so can I ask you to clarify the Swiss system for me? As I understand you you're saying that:

  • A "multiple choice" referendum is only ever held on two options, and these are always an initiative and a government counter-proposal. There are no "multiple choice" votes on 3 options or more.
  • If both options pass a "tiebreaker" vote is held, and the proposal that loses the tie-breaker is then disregarded while the winner becomes law.

Do I have this right? Also just to make sure I understand the tie-breaker system. Suppose there are two options: A and B. Both pass and a tiebreaker is held. The results in the tiebreaker are:

  • A is supported by 45% Voters + 60% Cantons = 105% overall
  • B is supported by 55% Voters + 40% Cantons = 95% overall

So A wins the tie-breaker. Is this what you mean by the "option is chosen where the sum of the percentages of votes and cantons in the tie-breaker question is higher"? Iota 16:00, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Right on all counts, as far as I can see. Multiple choice occurs when there is an initiative and a governmental counter-proposal to vote on. You get three questions:
A: Do you vote yes on initiative X? (Yes/No/Empty)
B: Do you vote yes on the counter-proposal? (Yes/No/Empty)
Tie breaker (Stichfrage): In the case that both the initiative and the counter-proposal pass, shall (A) the initiative or (B) the counter-proposal become effective? (A/B/Empty)
Now, typically people who vote Yes on 1 and No on 2 will vote A on the tie-breaker (3), and likewise a No on 1 and Yes on 2 results in a B at 3. Still, the tie-breaker may have a different percentage of A-votes than question 1 alone: people voting Yes on both 1 and 2 are equally likely to put A or B in the tie-breaker. And people voting No on both 1 and 2 may still answer the tie-breaker with A or B to indicate a preference for the lesser evil (as they may perceive it...). Your example looks good, but only for the tie-breaker. If those were the percentages for questions 1 and 2, respectively, both would have failed.
BTW, I have no idea what would happen if the tie-breaker was tied... However, tie-breaking is extremely rare. The text of the relevant paragraphs of the Swiss constitution is available online in German, French, and Italian. Lupo 19:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quorum ?

I question the following paragraph in its fastidious refusal to use the word "quorum" to describe the minimum threshold for a referendum:

In some countries there is also a requirement that there be a certain minimum turn-out of the electorate in order for the result of a referendum to be considered valid. This is intended to ensure that the result is representative of the will of the electorate and is analogous to the quorum required in a committee or legislature.

It's not analagous to a quorum; it is a quorum. The current media discussion of the Italian stem-cell referendum discusses it "failing to reach a quorum", not "failing to reach a minimum threshold" or "failing to reach a 'quorum'". Granted, the quorum article restricts the definition to "deliberative bodies"; however I think the reason is that few English-speaking jurisdictions which provide for referendums establish thresholds, so the question rarely arises; nevertheless, when it does, the word "quorum" is not used freely. I suggest both referendum and quorum be amended accordingly. Joestynes 08:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Student Union's often have a quorum for referendums Jonwelch 08:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iraq

Would it not be good to insert a section for the Iraq referendum? 204.126.127.253 22:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Supermajority is not democratic!

In British Columbia, we had a referendum to change the voting system from first past the post to single transferable vote. STV required a supermajority of 60% to win. STV got 58% Here is the problem. 40 votes for first past the post equals the value of 60 votes for stv. That means 1 vote for first past the post is worth 1.5 votes for STV AND that runs COUNTER to 1 person 1 vote which stands at the heart of democracy. This is not a soapbox issue. This is a simple math and education issue. Simply put supermajority requirements VIOLATE one person one vote and therefore they run counter to basic democratic principles! Brian White

Although oddly put, I agree, Brian. What you are trying to say, I think, is that if politicians can justify electing individual MLAs with less than a majority (in theory, if there were 20 candidates and they were practically all even, the one with 5.1 percent of the vote could win!), then they cannot justify rejecting an "overwhelming" 58 percent in favour of STV. They are hypocrites. If they can't accept that 58 percent as a mandate from the people, then every MLA (73 of the 79) with less than 60 percent of the votes must resign and run in byelection, and keep holding byelections until someone wins with 60 percent or more. In other words, live by the rules you're making the people live by! GBC 01:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I dont think it is oddly put at all.There can only be one definition of majority. 50% +1. If you require more than that in a referendum, it is exactly the same as giving voters on one side of the argument a vote of greater value than one. If the ¨supermajority¨ is 60%, it is the same as giving voters on one side 1.5 votes each. if it is 75%, it is the same as giving voters on one side 3 votes each! (it takes 75% to beat 25% that means each vote in the 25% group is worth 3 votes in the majority group. This is fundimentally antidemocratic and wikipedia needs to show that fact. The claim that supermajority requirements protect minoritys is an illusion too. Suppose a referendum recognises the rights of a minority but requires the 60% supermajority, then we have the supermajority requirement making the protection of the minority more difficult! Brian

[edit] AZ prop 200 (1996) and prop 300 (1998)

There were issues getting these referendums put into law.
~ender 2006-03-07 17:09:PM MST

[edit] Criticism Position

The Criticism is far to close to the beginning of this article. This is an encylopedia, and this article should explain in detail what a referendum is and then show criticisms of them. I am moving the section to the bottom. Travis Cleveland 11:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of Historical Perspective

This article lacks any view of the historical perspective of Referenda before the 1970s. What about the use of the plebiscite in early 20th century Europe especially following the First World war. See Category:Referendums by year. Lumos3 17:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I think you may be on to something, I believe the the scope of this article needs to be dramatically expanded, and even actually talking about the original Plebiscites of the Roman Republic, many of which were crucial in building the foundations of the modern world. Or would it be more fitting to just make a separate article for plebiscites?--Sire22 (talk) 15:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Referenda in Nazi Germany are only referred to in an aside, not explained. How should an ignorant reader be able to assess the validity of anti-referendum arguments if the events they refer to are omitted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.162.0.5 (talk) 14:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)