Talk:Red-green-brown alliance

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2008-April 30. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Sorry Dragula, I can't accept your edit of this article as it now stands -- you keep harping on this Alexandre del Valle character, even though he isn't the one who popularized the term, or caused it to spread into English, and you don't even have any particularly solid evidence that he invented it. I never heard of him before you dragged him out of his apparently well-deserved obscurity. Furthermore, the definition in the first paragraph is not acceptable, because it gives one single meaning which is by no means the only possible meaning of this phrase. AnonMoos

P.S. Why can't you discuss any political subject without launching into your little "warbloggers are bad people" jihad? There's not even any necessary connection between concern over anti-semitism and advocating the invasion of Iraq anyway, and when you collapse all distinction between these two things, then you're drastically oversimplifying the positions of those whose politics you don't like. AnonMoos 01:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

P.P.S. If you can't read the French language, then why not just accept your limitations in that respect, instead of trying to use the rather dubious link http://www.info-turc.org/article522.html to make up for this? AnonMoos 01:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi AnonMoos, according to the articles cited, del Valle originated the expression "red-green-brown alliance" in... oh rats, it appears you've deleted the link to that article again. Now I'll have to go find it.

Dragula 09:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, found it again. According to the article in Nouvelles du Turq, Alexandre del Valle "is the one who coined the expression 'red-green-brown alliance'" Your own research shows as well that at least one of del Valle's earliest uses of some variation of this expression ("red-brown-green") occurred in an April 12, 2002 article in the Figaro.

Now then, your apparent preferred source - Roger Cukierman - first used the phrase "alliance brun-vert-rouge" (brown, green, red alliance) in a speech on January 27th/28th 2003. So, here are the major problems with your theory (of Cukierman as originator) as I understand it.

One, time only flows in one direction, so 2002 came before 2003.

Two, an established source, the Turkish News, claims that del Valle originated the term. He may be obscure from your POV but according to this article is a major voice in and influence on the French New Right. This has been corroborated by every other account I have read of him in the French press, BTW. You admit that you had never heard of del Valle before I brought him up; this does not suffice to persuade me of your expertise.

Three, your preferred source not only used the phrase a year later, and is nowhere credited in the press as its originator, but didn't even use the formulation of the phrase which is the title of this entry! Remember, this entry is about the 'red-green-brown alliance' - Cukierman reversed the order of the words in del Valle's phrase in his speech, so not only was he not originating the usage featured in the title of this entry, he was actually coining something new!

My suggestion is that if you want to focus on Cukierman as the originator of something, start a new entry for the phrase "brown-green-red alliance" instead. Then you won't have to mention del Valle at all, except as an influence. Otherwise, if we are going to talk about the "Red-Green-Brown" alliance (see the title of this entry and your own additions to other entries) then we should credit the originator of the term "Red-Green-Brown" alliance and explain what he meant by it before we delve into the later variations and reinterpretations advanced by various derivative thinkers.

BTW, I grew up in French-speaking Canada and wrote my senior thesis on Pierre Drieu La Rochelle, so I find your assumption that I am crippled by an inability to read French quite amusing. I should add that am not interested in you personally nor in your speculations about various topics unrelated to wikipedia and will thank you to kindly keep these to yourself in the future.

Dragula 09:06, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

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