Talk:Recruit training

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A Winner of the March 2005 West Dakota Prize

This entry is one of only seventeen that have won the March 2005 West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence. --Wetman 07:59, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] NPOV dispute: "brainwash process"

The following whole paragraph should be changed to an NPOV:

The process has been described as a form of brainwashing in which inductees are encouraged to submerge their individuality partially in favour of their unit. To that end, standard uniforms are issued and the troops are shaved and grooved upon arrival in order to have their appearance be as uniform as possible. In addition, the trainees are instructed to move and respond in unison to encourage a group mentality. At the same time, the trainees are subjected to numerous physical activity trials to both to familarize the trainees in the demands of combat and to weed out the less able and/or willing trainees, which not only strengthens the unit's overall physical ability, but also builds morale for the remaining troops who are able to meet the physical demands and continue.

Sounds like a BCT dropout! I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of websites that describe what BCT is from an NPOV. I'm just not interested in editing this article.

--Maio 01:54, Jan 12, 2004 (UTC)

Anyone who thinks it's not brainwashing is brainwashed ^_^' simple as that.
It pretty much is a brainswashing process. They may not call it brainwashing, but they do describe brainwashing in their description of their training program. The US recruit training units, for example, describe the process as breaking people down, giving them a new set of experiences to serve as a frame of reference for the future, and then building them back up. The word "brainwashing" is absent from that description, but the description itself is practically the dictionary definition of "brainwash".
Equazcion •✗/C • 01:42, 12/24/2007

[edit] Useful links

Remember that the article must be from an NPOV, there is no need to allude the 'greatness' of the Army or the 'gratness' of the Army values.

--Maio 03:07, Jan 12, 2004 (UTC)

Other than the "brainwashing" quote, it sounds neutral.

I'd also remark that basic training varies widely between the branches. When I was in USAF BT, it lasted six weeks, and this included only a few days of actual combat training (one day of target shooting, one day on a "confidence course"). By contrast USMC BT is at least 11 weeks, and includes extended combat and survival training. This is the sort of hardline basic training most civilians imagine. US Navy training includes swimming, and the US Army BT is probably in between the extremes of the Air Force on one hand and the Marines on the other.

Don't get the idea that Air Force "basic training" is an easy ride. It isn't. It's not as oriented toward ground combat as the Army or Marines, but it's still tough, and there is a lot of mental stress. Also, AF BMT now includes a week-long field exercise called "Warrior Week" that they didn't have back when I was in.--MarshallStack 21:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Army frame

I'm going to tune the article to make it more general. Mainly the intro; for instance, Marines and sailors go to "boot camp." Maurreen 08:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As do Coast Guard personnel.--MarshallStack 06:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] About 'boot camp'

It's a fairly universal term for all branches, IMO, not just the Marines and Navy.

My understanding is that the Army and Air Force usually call it "basic training," but no biggie. Maurreen 05:58, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's slang, so there's no official affiliation with the term.

The Coast Guard also calls it "boot camp". The Army calls it "Basic Combat Training" and the Air Force calls it "Basic Military Training."--MarshallStack 01:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

It was initially called Boot Camp because the recruits were called boots based on the leggings they wore. This began during the Spanish-American War. The only service that had recruits called "boots" was the Navy & hence Marines as they are part of the US Navy. Calling the Army's Basic Training "Boot Camp" stems from carelessness & ignorance.

If you go to Army or Air Force basic and call it "boot camp," a Drill Sergeant or Military Training Instructor will be ever so glad to correct you!--MarshallStack 21:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

Does anyone disagree with removing the tag at the top of this talk page? Maurreen 05:58, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I don't. We have to discuss this topic in a very controversial way but no one actually means to be POV here. It's just that opinions are stated here.

[edit] camp for felons

I'm not exactly convinced that if you type "boot camp" in the "search" box you should be led to this article. There also is this kind of boot camp that is used for convicts, especially such of minor age, who want to shorten their term. That's not exactly got to do anything with recruit training even if the same methods are used. I think an article on its own is needed for that in order to display the various views on the subject like if it really works or if it's brutal or whatsoever. --85.74.171.208 00:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have seen such a "felon camp" that was actually inside Ft. Gordon, GA when I was there for AIT. Most of the people there looked to be teenaged, middle-school to high-school that were probably on their last stop before state prison. I don't know anything more than that about it, though, we only saw them for a few minutes as we ran past their fenced-in compound during a Brigade motivational run. teh TK 10:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of US Forces training

I don't think the list of US bases and training is appropriate: if you're going to list US information then you should have to list all training facilities from all services from all countries. The page is about Recruit Training, not US Recruit Training. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.12.47 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Recruit Abuse in US Basic Training?

The different US Services - Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard - all operate their own basic training courses. I have heard conflicting comments as to whether "abuse" of recruits is allowed, or at least officers and/or senior NCO's "look the other way". Basic Training is supposed to be tough and to possibly prepare a military member for a combat situation. However, I have heard different stories about whether "abuse" and "hazing" is allowed, condoned or practiced by each service.

In the late 1990s, there were scandals in Army Basic Training (including sexual relations between some Drill Sergeants and recruits) that caused the Army to tighten standards of conduct for Drill Sergeants, both to benefit recruits and to shield Drill Sergeants from unsubstantiated accusations.

Those I have talked to in the Marine Corps - who supposedly have the toughest Basic Training - say that Drill Instructors are not even allowed to use profanity (which goes against the entire "Full Metal Jacket" stereotype), let alone physical abuse, though of course they still scream at the top of their lungs (it wouldn't be Basic Training if they didn't). Apparently Marine DI's emphasize to new recruits right away that they are not allowed to physically abuse them.

I have no information on how the Navy or Coast Guard handles this.

My own experience at Air Force basic training was that if you were "abused" or not had very much to do with the personality of your individual Military Training Instructor (MTI). There were some MTI's who would not even touch the issue of hazing, racial slurs, etc., whereas others (mine was among them) would indeed use copious doses of profanity, hazing, racial slurs and occasional physical abuse when there were no officers and/or senior sergeants around. Mine would throw things at recruits and at no time when I was there were we ever advised of Air Force regulations on physical abuse and/or hazing of recruits.--MarshallStack 01:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)


The Full Metal Jacket stereotype comes from the "old Army/Marines" where the Drill Daddies (don't ever call them that to their face) -could- beat the living crap out of you, as it was well within their authority. That was back in the old days, from the 1930s up to probably around the 1980s. After that legislature change prompted the US armed forces to tighten up the behavior of their respective training cadre to prevent them from receiving too much bad press. Anyone who's been in the Army or the Marines since the mid-80s or before will usually grumble about the "new Army/Marines" and how we've got it so easy these days.. although according to the Army Times there's been even more relaxing of standards in basic regarding physical fitness - apparently now "warriors" (they're not called "soldiers" until they graduate) can do push ups from their knees, "girl style". I'm flabbergasted, as it wasn't that easy when I was in. Also, a good deal of abuse did occur (and still does to this day), but the Army at least is doing better at tracking it down and punishing those involved.
It seems that among basic training Drill Sergeants, profanity, while frowned upon by the Army in general, is one of those minor offenses that most cadre are willing to turn their heads and look the other way about (especially considering that the vast majority of them are from the "old Army" where they had it a lot worse). And while Drill Sergeants are no longer allowed to put their hands on you (except when you're handling a rifle and they do it "for safety reasons" - I got slapped upside the Kevlar once for loading my M16A2 the wrong way during Convoy Live-Fire training), that doesn't mean they can't "smoke" you (make you do physical training exercises until muscle failure sets in and you literally can't do any more) till you wish you were dead.
All in all though it's for your own good, few people are in as good of shape in their whole lives as they are at the end of basic. I would have preferred more emphasis on "real-world" combat scenario training, though, as we spent plenty of time ruck-marching out to bivouac sites and setting up camp in the woods, but very little training that was directly relevant to the situations we were likely to end up in downrange (urban fighting, for example). Supposedly the recent move by the Army to extend basic training from 9 to 12 weeks was an attempt to remedy this, but that doesn't do me a whole lotta good being already graduated, sitting on my ass in Germany and barely even getting to the range to requalify on my rifle every six months :P teh TK 11:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know where you got the idea about "girlie" from-the-knee push-ups. I went through Army basic training a couple years ago (2004 I believe) and that certainly wasn't allowed. Hands and feet are the only points that can touch the ground, each not more than 12 inches apart, back and legs in a straight line, face forward. They're very strict about it, both in PT testing and in daily PT. As for abuse, although the rule is that they can't so much as touch you, it still happens. I got a stiff hand to the neck knock me to the ground for eyeballing the drill sergeant, and on another occasion my wrist bent forcefully because I tried to keep my hands inside my sleeves when it was too cold out. I also witnessed a drill sergeant choke-out a recruit for making fun of him -- that's where they put you in a choke hold til you pass out. Even without breaking the rules, they can still put your body in a great deal of distress just from creative smoking techniques, like making you do PT in full chemical protective gear, meaning gas masks and all. It's not pleasant. It's also true that a rule is on the books that drills aren't allowed to use profanity, but that is the most widely-broken rule in the US military, as everyone from drill sergeants to company CO's to battalion commanders curse at you multiple times in every sentence from the moment you arrive at Basic. Equazcion 07:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Length of USAF basic training...

...is now 8 weeks and is to include moree m-16 training as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.173.201.81 (talk • contribs)

Yep, all the US Armed Forces have had their respective initial training extended. Army went from 9 weeks to 12, Air Force from 6 to 8, Marines from 12 to 16 (I believe, I could be wrong) and Navy I have no idea. Don't have a date for it either, but I'm sure it could be Googled with little effort. teh TK 11:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but you are mistaken. Air Force basic is indeed 8 weeks. Army and navy are still 9 weeks. Marine Corp Boot Camp has been 13 week for the 10 years I have been in the Corps. Bunns USMC 17:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


Air Force BMT has been at 8 weeks for over a year now. The weapons and physical training standards have also been greatly raised over the last 3-4 years as well.

USAF BMT is still 6 and a half (3 or 4 days depending on when you ship) weeks. it will still be that way till maybe october of 2007 if AETC don't push back the training step-up again like last year. Ptennant88 00:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pov ?

Quite an interesting subject historically and globally, so should it be confined quite so much to a North American pov?

Hakluyt bean 19:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Not at all, if anyone with sufficient knowledge of other nations' basic training would like to add, by all means.. teh TK 11:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok. I think I had in mind generic basic training. After all it is basic:) I wouldn't reference national training myself unless it was illustrative of eg cultural or political difference. You might end up with an impression that basic training has particular national origins or importance, and I'm not sure that's true. Seems a ubiquitous practice. Hakluyt bean

[edit] Let's all go and get a haircut, boys and girls!

In the civilian world, the phrase "shaved head" may figuratively describe the short haircut given to male recruits. But in the military, "shaved head" means just that -- down to no hair or fuzz at all. The US military does not want its troops to be confused with skinheads, so they are not permitted to literally shave their heads -- maybe throughout their military career. As for female recruits, not only would it be forbidden for them to be literally shaven, I think they can't have as short a haircut as a male recruit is forced to get. Sobolewski 20:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

In the Marine Corps you can shave your head if you choose to. I'm talking down to the skin. If you doubt it you can look up Marine Corps Order P1020.34g - Marine Corps uniform Regulations. Bunns USMC 17:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Army Reg 670-1 para 1-8a(2)(a), "[h]air that is clipped closely or shaved to the scalp is authorized." As for trainees, the hair is clipped to the scalp, not shaved. Trainees don't have nearly enough time in the morning to be shaving their heads with a razor. We were usually on the ready line within a few minutes when I went through. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.14.17.226 (talk) 22:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


I deleted the references to shaving heads, becuase I'm not aware of that being typical. I think it's really just the US that does that. In many other countries, hair only has to be cut short. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.141.88.96 (talk) 22:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Correction to US Army Infantry OSUT time

The example for OSUT time given in regards to US Army infantry training was 9 weeks of basic training and 4 weeks of infantry MOS training, this number was incorrect. The number has been corrected to 6 weeks of infantry MOS training (there are 15 weeks total).

[edit] Proposed split of US Army Basic Training

US Army Basic Training deserves to be a separate article. It's too comprehensive to be here. Please post your thoughts. Thank you. Equazcion 23:39, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. ScarianTalk 00:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Agree. -- Hongooi 06:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to those who posted. There doesn't seem to be an inordinate amount of interest in this discussion so I've taken the initiative and performed the split. See US Army Basic Training. I shortened the existing section here to more of a summary, but this still needs a lot of work. The section needs to be shortened more and be reworded so that it's less similar to the Army Basic Training main article.
For those who may have been hesitant to post a lot of details in this section, I invite you be to be as detailed as you want now by adding to the main article (US Army Basic Training).

Equazcion 00:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tear Gas Chamber

With a major option of going into the military (Navy), I am curious for more information about this part of basic "boot camp". Compare/contrast between different branches in the US, so forth, so on... Always been curious anyhow (my father told me stories of it)... KyNephi (talk) 05:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)