Talk:Recep Tayyip Erdoğan

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Contents

[edit] Prologue

Look at http://www.memri.org/bin/media.cgi?ID=128705 and see Erdogan with Al Qaida

-- yawn! [12:25 Feb 14, 06]

Sadly, half of the Turkish voters foolishly think that he has changed a lot. Voters see him as a democratic and a charismatic leader and no more as an Islamist extremist. Deliogul 12:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The real morons are those who consider the will/decision of the public as foolish. You will have to respect the results of the elections in a democratic country if you are really democrat and republican. However, in Turkey, there are those who are blind to the realities and who are deaf to public's demand of democracy and normalization. At least, half of the public are not like the rest who drown in their ignorant secularistic bigotry.

Note this, if you control the words, you control the public who are in need of using those words. The public are nowadays informed enough to know who is using what words under what intentions. What is islamic extremist? how can you label Erdogan as an Islamic extremist? All these words, secularism, nationalism, extremisim, etc are discussed in minds who are open enough for the realities. The public do not buy the same old memorized slogans like in the past. They are more critical in pursuing the reality itself.

I didn't say that I don't consider the result as legal or legitimate. I only think that it is wrong and irrational. In a true democracy, nobody can stop me for expressing my view as long as I’m not violating the law. Therefore, I don't accept the Kissinger role you gave to me, in this situation, I'm Allende. Deliogul 13:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever lived in Turkey? Most of the people live in poverty and cling to religion. They do not judge whether this will be ultimately good for them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.241.65.126 (talk) 13:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Have your ever read the Turkish constitution? It is supposed to be democratic, it doesn't say that just rich and secular people is allowed to vote because they know how to "judge better"... Have you ever thought that the problem might be that the "awesome system" of secular, economic and military elites are leaving outside the people who is now living in poverty? they may be the real reason for the AKP's support. Caribeando (talk) 01:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic

He is ethnicly Georgian? Are you sure about that?

I search this subject on internet. There is actual news about it. He says my ancestors moved from Georgia to Turkey. These are the links but in Turkish--Ugur Basak 02:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Some nationalist groups call him Gürcü Tayyipov (Georgian Tayyipov). They think Erdoğan doesn't deserve to be the Prime Minister of Turkey because his ancestors weren't Turks. I also think he doesn't deserve to be the Prime Minister but not because he is Georgian. He was (and to me still) an Islamist extremist. He is also an anti-republican and anti-secular person. Saygılarımla, Deliogul 23:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

He's not ethnic Georgian, his parents are from Rize and nobody in their fair minds would argue that people from Rize are ethnic Georgian, he could be Laz though and I don't think the Turkish nationalist groups would ever take issue with that. He was the only Istanbul-born mayoral candidate in the 1994 Istanbul mayoral race, which he won. Saglikserdar 06:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Living in Rize doesn't make you directly Turkish or a foreigner resident of Rize doesn't make all citizens in the city foreigners. Also, nationalist circles are using the term as I saw it in their magazines. Of course, this approach is the same with the approach of the leftist organizations which giving many religious oriented nicknames to Erdoğan. They are both subjective. Deliogul 16:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name pronunciation?

How is his name pronounced? – Kaihsu 11:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[Reh-jehp Tah-yip Ehr-dou-ahn] - something like this :) --Teemeah Gül Bahçesi 18:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronounce it directly as how it is written. This is the beauty of Turkish language :) With respect, Deliogul 23:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
It might be special in other senses... I know at least three more languages that are pronounced as written. With respect ;-) Caribeando (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
If you know how to pronounce Turkish letters, which many don't. denizTC 19:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Haha but I won't care if they call him Teyyap Irdogin or something like that ;) Deliogul 21:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I corrected the edits of ip: 206.47.249.252 which were absolutely made to insult. (http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=takiyye) 88.254.81.202 (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Numbering

How was the figure of 57th PM arrived at? From the list, it seems a few ways of getting there are possible (by individual, by government, counting military governments, not counting them, etc.). Biruitorul 07:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Turkey was in chaos for much of the time during the Cold War. Being a NATO member right next to the Soviet block was really hard. Turkey had different Prime Ministers for every different year. After Turkish people passed those critical times they faced economic crisis during 90's and again in 2001. Of course many times politicians had to left the Prime Ministry due to these repeating crisis. I don't really like Erdoğan but if he can manage to complete his 4 year term in the office, I think this will be the first complete term since the Adnan Menderes' term. That was a long time a go, long before even my parrents were born ;) With respect, Deliogul 23:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, but that doesn't really answer my concern: namely, if you go here, you'll find that 26 people have been Prime Minister of Turkey. So where did the number 57 come from? Biruitorul 02:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
It might be the number of governments, several people have been prime minister for more than once, for instance Süleyman Demirel had been a prime minister for seven terms. denizTC 02:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

İsmet İnönü, Adnan Menderes, Süleyman Demirel, Bülent Ecevit and Turgut Özal served more than once. A little addition to what Denizz said before :) Deliogul 12:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subjectivity?

As much as I don't agree with Erdogan's neither domestic nor foreign policy, I think it's a bit far-fetched to assume that a prime minister has anything to do with the recognition of the so-called formation of a country such as Kurdistan. Governments are elected temporarily and Erdogan has so far, currently in his last year, failed to meet the majority expectation. Still, it is unfair and unbecoming to use virtually baseless and dyspeptic comments in an essentially neutral dictionary.Pearlsforswine 11:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Some fractions are angry to him because he generally says the same things which Barzani says and it is so clear that Barzani supports Kurdish activists (Ahmet Türk etc.) and PKK. Actually, Erdoğan won a huge majority and I started to think that Turkish voters love autonomous Kurds and their activities. It takes my breath away :) Deliogul 12:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

These things that he says that you say are the same things that Barzani says, why don't you give some examples so people have some idea about what you're referring to.Saglikserdar 06:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Barzani says that Turkey can't cross the borders of Kurdistan. Couple months later, Erdoğan easily gives up the right of hot pursuit of the Turkish Armed Forces. Deliogul 16:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

And now the Turkish army is in Northern Iraq, what do you say to that? Saglikserdar (talk) 06:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mhhh.... about vandalism and possible semi-protect

I've reverted some vandalism, and I also see the comment above as an indicator that this article could be targeted for some more. So I will be checking in the next days and semi-protect it if needed --Legion fi 08:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Please I beg of you for the sake of the integrity of wikipedia. Find Erdogan's Siirt speech -and I promise if I can find it on youtube someday I'll post a link- he started his speech with a poem as follows in Turkish: "Minareler sungu/ Kubbeler migfer/ Camiler kislamiz/ Muminler asker" And that was it he did not continue on with those made up lines as this article suggests. The source is also mistaken. I have watched that speech before and I very well know what he has said and what he has not said. Don't get into vandalism talk without knowing as good as I do. Find the speech and be ashamed of your bias. Saglikserdar (talk) 06:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Revision Needed

I request that this article be revised intensively for the following reasons:


1- Contains bias at the scope of reaching to hilarious statements like "He does not shake women's hands" (must be vandalism of course, it is best to restrict any changes in the text first)

2- Sources are not reliable. It is unsubstantiated that he has Georgian roots. Sites like turksolu (turkish left) are highy biased.

3-The sources given do not match the inscriptions. The poem incident is highly inaccurate, although the BBC is given as the source


~~

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 03:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Turkish Record in Public Votes

AKP (JUSTICE AND DEVELOPMENT PARTY) OF THE TURKISH REPUBLIC HAS INCREASED THEIR VOTES FROM THE LAST ELECTIONS IN 2002,THUS BECOMING ONLY THE SECOND PARTY TO DO SO IN 2006. TO GOVERN WITH A RECORD BREAKING 47.5% OF PUBLIC VOTE.

Aslaningozu 01:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This or that way, he won the elections and crushed the opposition. Yeah, he is a bad guy but the people we supported against him weren't good enough either. Therefore, we must stop crying for today and work for the future. Just like Charles de Gaulle once said, "France has lost a battle, but France has not lost the war". Deliogul 17:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

And I wonder if this KANAL TURK is anywhere close to the mainstream? And do you really believe that a ruling party can increase its votes from 34 percent to 46 percent given almost 5 years of track record through delivering gift checks to people. Even the opposition leaders could not pursue such arguments. Saglikserdar 06:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Politics is way more complex than food help, I can accept that. On the other hand, claiming that the only reason of the rise in the number of votes is the success of the ruling party is just absurd too. Internal support is just a portion of the picture (what do we understand from "internal", that's debatable too). USA declared that it is glad because of AKP's victory in the elections. As an IR student, I know that using the wind of USA to move your ship is generally a bad thing to do (see the concepts of neoliberalism and neoconservatism). Therefore we must think why Americans loved the situation and why EU delegates started to express their worries about the secularism in Turkey. Desperately defending AKP (or CHP, or DSP) is a useless thing to do, of course if we want to build some academic statements from the situation. Deliogul 16:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


???WHAT other reason "internal" are there for akp`s success in the elections apart from, them proving themselves in the governmental arena, pulling inflation rates down from hitting the roof to a standstill maybe it was the revelutionary acts in social securities, the 80% price reduction of general medicine, and the avalibility of these at not only the local pharmacy but nationwide(benefits for peple on benefit),maybe it was the financial help that was given to the agricultural sectors of turkey thus the rates of tractors bought by the farmers and the interest rates to the financial credits borrowed are phonominal.also it could be that over a 100 thousand girls whose parent were not willing to send their daughters were supported mentally and physically, not to mention parents could not afford books to buy for their children for the coming term of school, akp gives these books free of charge!how about that? or could it be the brand new built 6000 kms of dual carriadge ways, that made transport much easier and safer? hello my there are many, many more improvements akp has achived "internally" which other reason do you see for the rise of votes enlighten us please.. Aslaningozu 01:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, then they are not trying to destroy the University Hospitals in Turkey via their strategies. Money flows to Turkey because of the successful government of AKP and not because of the high interest rates and AKP's policy to create a neoliberal market by promoting FDIs. Don't forget that while the rich don't pay any KDV to diamonds, ordinary people can't buy any basic material without paying high KDV tax. I guess they are also successful in the field of agriculture because they are leaving everything to God and doing nothing about the effects of the false usage of the water in farms while the world is at danger because of the global warming and we nearly lost Konya, once the grain storage of Turkey. Those lecture books aren't produced without a cost and people still paying them by paying taxes and this "come on girls, lets go to school!" campaign is a success of Turkcell with the support of famous people rather than AKP. Finally, new roads.... In an age that the civilization cries for the public transport (fast train, metro etc.), they decided to bury our money into the ground with those highways. They should have been "weaving the country from top to bottom with iron wires" instead of doing those roads. I hate to oppose everything AKP supporters say but that wasn't my goal while I was talking about the "internal" support. That is why I put it in brackets. I was talking about the business circles and some NGOs rather than the citizens of the country. By the way, as I said before, blindly defending any political entity wouldn't help anyone. For example, I can also talk forever about how a useless person Deniz Baykal is but that would be a lost time of my life. Deliogul 13:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The poem that put him in jail

The article presents a version recited by Erdogan and another version published in 1913 but in reality what he recited in Siirt is this: "Minarets bayonets, Domes helmets, Mosques our barracks, Believers soldiers". He does not go on to reciting any other part from that poem. I have not checked the sources of this poem but it seems the two are different poems published in different books. What Erdogan recited in Siirt is a poem by Gokalp in which he portrays a fictional conversation between Alpaslan, the victorious Turkish leader at Malazgirt, and the Roman emperor. This point should be revised. At least if the sources of the poem or poems are not verified the part that says Erdogan's version is definitely wrong. It is written to mean that Erdogan recited a whole poem by Gokalp and he made several changes to the original. Erdogan only recited four lines as I mentioned above.Saglikserdar 06:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Erdoğan modified the poem that's for sure. Also, he used it for religious purposes rather than nationalistic purposes of Ziya Gökalp. Deliogul 16:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The question:"Erdogan only recited four lines as I mentioned above." If one person recites only 4 lines, which he already changed these four lines; HOW do we know which poem he recited??? He could have come up with this 4 lines and we would not even be talking about it. We are talking because the poem in question was very famous during Balkan Wars. It was claimed to be a war of "Christian - Muslim (caliphate sultan)" war (can not find this fact in high school text book). He replaced the SULTAN's army section with a pointer to his group. Poem does not refer to sultan's army but army of Is.. Radi.. of Turkey. Just something to crunch 4u guys.--Rateslines 04:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

If Balkan provinces didn't support the Young Turk revolution, there wouldn't be a CUP rule in the empire. Therefore simply calling Balkan Wars a clash between the religions is wrong. Balkan Wars were like a bloody meeting between Ottomans and Millets where the half a millennium old Ottoman presence was on the table. Deliogul 10:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

This is one of the differences based on the realities on the ground and behind the war zone. Lets look at a corresponding dualism: Is it war against ""Terrorism"" or war against "Western way of life, -Bush in 2003" (Is Western being Christian?). If it is against terrorists, why not go after .... But they do not, do they??. Turkey nicely defines this dualism as there is no "your terrorist" or "my terrorist", but "the terrorist". You use the same perspective. Without noticing that you are using it. If you define (you have already done it) Ottomans (Muslim millet) and Millets (All other millets), you would be saying what the poem was saying. Erdogan two days ago "Bu millet'e en buyuk kotuluk, icinde bolucululuk oldugunu ...". He sees Turkey as the Muslim Millet. The understanding of millet, as he was using, being what the Balkan wars left behind. He did not say "Bu ulusa..." Ulus being the nation what Ataturk Reforms brought (Turkish people). He also said "Ataturk Happaned", didn't he? If you look why Armenian Revolutionary Federation supported "Young Turk revolution", you would see the same perspective as DTP's congress resolution two days ago. It was a way to establish an escape route from "the half a millennium old Ottoman presence" for ARF and perhaps 80 years of Turkish for DTP. Will DTP stop at the point if their demands realized. Did Armenians stop even though they had their Armenian Reform look at the first couple result. Just something to crunch 4u. Erdogan is holding on what Ottoman Empire left behind. DTP deny this concept. Rateslines 15:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
First of all, there is nothing called Muslim Millet in the Ottoman imperial administration. The millet system traditionally contains Jewish, Armenian and Orthodox communities with late modifications like Protestants etc. It was a set of rights granted to non-Muslims to form fragmentation in the social and political structure of the empire. Therefore, these people were in different positions and this is the one key thing in the "empire" building process. If you have one cultural identity in your territory, your state is called a nation-state. All these mean that I used the dualism on purpose, not without noticing. I know that Erdoğan is using such terms for Islamic tendencies and I know that today we hold what is left of the "empire that ruled over three continents" but you have to understand that if we can go back to 18/19th century Ottoman Empire and tell Ottomans that they are going to lose Damascus, Sofia and Thessaloniki, they would treat us like some crazy man. Note that when I say "Ottomans", I refer to the whole population. Deliogul 22:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I do not get it why .....? There is no reason 4 me to discuss what Millet means. There is enough publication regarding Sheikh ul-Islam (Leader of ...) and what it represents under Ottoman civil administration (Millet of ...). Such as the Supreme Patriarch of All Armenians (Leader of ...) and Armenian Apostolic Church (Millet of ...). Even the Sultan which Christians named him "Blody Sultan" recognized the fact that "he was going to lose Damascus, Sofia and Thessaloniki" and began to use the title Caliphate more than any Sultan in the history of Ottoman Dynasty. We have seen how that turned out in WWI and Arab Revolt. By the way Ottomans has been a family designation (or the tribe (Turkish: Beylik) if you like), but never the "Nation." You and me are not children of Ottomans. I'm sure there is no familial linkage in my inheritance to Sultan Murat V. I know where my grand-grand parents grave is. They are sleeping at the same grave yard that my grand father and grand mother. It is being the Karamanogullari, not Ottomanogullari. I wanted my mom close where I live, she is not sleeping with them. I'm sorry that I was selfish. I'm a "Turkish" with a very strong "Turkic" origin. I can say: Erdogan is a "Turkish" with a very strong "Georgian" origin. I have friends who are Turkish with Kurdish origin. By the way "Turkish-Turkic" differentiation is also very established concept. I have not seen Erdogan using these terminologies once in his political life. He generally uses the term "Millet." When I sorted out all the arguments in your message, I had hard time getting out what you are opposing. Erdogan cited "Asker Duasi (Soldiers Pray)" which was used during a war time waged by Caliphate. He changed the pointers in the poem to ""a"" group located inside the Turkey. That was the reason court decided it was a speech of "religious hatred". The court asked "whose army is that?" and "where are they going to invade?" Rateslines 23:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
If you know some about Tanzimat Reforms, you must know the Ottoman citizenship system. I couldn't find another way to describe the whole population of the Ottoman territory. It doesn't mean that I'm talking about being a member of the House of Osman. Also, Abdülhamid II used Pan-Islamic policies after the disastrous Ottoman-Russian War of 1877-78 because suddenly a huge part of the western provinces were gone. If you think in the context of the Eastern Question, Abdülhamid was trying to form a more centralized and stable empire, both to defend his domain from western interventions and to intervene to other parts of the world by using Islam. I think there is a little confusion about the term millet. Its meaning has changed after the formation of the republic so when we say millet today, it is not the same thing Ottomans used then. At last, I wasn't opposing your opposition to Erdoğan but my problem is with “the way” you oppose because I think you use some false thinking to reach what you try to say. You know the saying "iki eğri bir doğru etmez". Deliogul 00:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)