Talk:Rasgulla

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[edit] Rasgulla is not cheese

This message is for the benefit for the individual who decided to blank verifiable sourced messages to push the POV that the Portuguese introduced cheese into India. First, get your facts straight: Rasgulla is not cheese. It is made from the curdled product chena (or chana) that Indians have been making for centuries even before Vasco Da Gama set foot on Calicut. As such, I request you to refrain from placing unsubstantiated (and in this case irrelevant information) on this page. Thanks Antorjal 12:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I am out of context but chhana cannot be called curdled, and its really a cheese Jeroje 09:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)jeroje

I think it is cheese, but when one refers to cheese in western cuisine, it usually means ripened cheese. Chhena is unripened chese. SDas 13:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Rasgulla is cheese. "Cheese" as a term covers a wide range of foods, including farmers' cheese and hoop cheese, both of which are very similar to chhana/chhena. --SameerKhan 22:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

by the way the references are not reliable, Jeroje 09:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)jeroje

I know. There are very few references, and unfortunately most are in Oriya! Feel free to go ahead and make any changes you like. SDas 13:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There was a nice, long article from way back in 1970s, which appeared in either The Illustrated Weekly or Femina (as far as I remember), which was exactly what is said in this article. It will be very hard to get hold of that reference :( . SDas 13:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I commented on the quality of the references not on the origin. most of the listed references are blogs and news papers (indiatimes, TOI etc ). Jeroje 18:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)jeroje

The best references on the origin of chhana based sweets in Bengal are Chitrita Banerjee's books. She clearly refers to the fact that the production of chhana was inspired by Portuguese fresh cheese-making.

I have no reason to doubt her argument as she's arguably the best contemporary scholar of Bengali cuisine. Hence it follows that the roshogolla could have only been created at points of contact with the Portuguese - which were all in Bengal, not Orissa.

The reason why this is a rock-solid argument is the fact that there was a very clear religious taboo on deliberating "spoiling" milk by curdling it. Most milk-based sweets prior to chhana were made by evaporating or thickening the milk, not curdling it.

Somehow, this page has become such a bone of contention for some very parochial Oriyas. I mean - please, there's much that's very fine in Oriya cuisine - you don't have to drum up spurious arguments to claim the Oriya origin of roshogolla. And also a pity, because no matter what this Wiki page says, the Bengali origin of roshogolla is so clearly established that no one would ever take this claim seriously.

But, whatever. I've made my point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.166.116 (talk) 06:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is no place for such emotional outbursts which is why you were blocked. A Bengali recipe book author is no authority on history. I noticed that you got an effective rebuttal to your tantrums elsewhere.

FYI:

Portuguese cheese is always made with rennet obtained from animal stomachs, but rennet is never used in Indian cheese.
Most Portuguese cheeses, such as Queijo da Serra, are made of sheep or goat milk whereas Indian cheese is made of cow's or buffalo milk.
In stark contrast to the rasgulla, Portuguese cheese is never sweetened.
There are enough references to curdling of milk in ancient India, starting with the Bhagavat Gita. Krishna is punished by Yashoda for stealing a pot of pot of curdled milk.
In ancient India, curdled milk was obtained by an admixture of pieces of a creeper called Putika or pieces of bark of the Palasa tree to the boiling milk. (Source: encyclopedia of cheese). There was no such taboo to curdling. (Or maybe there was a highly local Bengali taboo).
Genuine Portuguese introductions (corn, potatoes, tomatoes, squash) are never used inside traditional Hindu temples. On the other hand, chhena cheese is a very popular ingredient Vaishnava temples. In the Puri Jagannath temple, the deity is served with an offering of rasgullas right after the commencement of the annual Rath Yatra.
The Portuguese arrived in Orissa too (Pipili, Balasore) around the same time they arrived in Bengal. But they came to Cochin, Calicut and Goa earlier than that.
Several curdled milk dishes (such as Mutter Paneer or Paneer Kofta) were introduced in India through the Afghans before the Portuguese came to Bengal.
There are many traditional cheese dishes from other parts of India too (curries as well as desserts), that are not even cooked in Bengal. (Will you claim all of them to be Bengali also?)

I hope to see a more tempered, rational set of comments from you next time.

Thank you. --70.179.132.31 (talk) 05:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ha - I finally figured out where you got that Putika reference from - thank you Google Scholar. Apparently came from a book by someone named Ghodarkar who is not a food historian, but a microbiologist.

I can almost visualize you jumping up and down with glee at this 'remarkable' discovery. Microbiology is a genuine scientific profession. Microbiologists have Ph.D.s and publish in peer reviewed journals (including my source). The origin of another cheese (Limburger cheese) was traced back to Belgium/Netherlands from the bacterium present in it. Guess what kind of researchers were involved. OTOH, there ain't no such thing as a "food historian", neither is there any scientific publication on "food history". You prolly just made it all up. A genuine investigation into the origin of a food requires a multi-disciplinary approach that no two-bit 'food historian' can accomplish. Now if you do some more 'research', you will find that there are descriptions of the preparation of sondesh in medieval Bengali texts, well before the Portuguese set foot on Indian soil.

Also he very charmingly mixes up Afghan and Indian paneer, which my dear, are two entirely different things entirely. Afghan paneer is like feta, and tastes nothing like Indian paneer. Afghans had absolutely nothing to do with mutter paneer or (*shock* *horror*!) paneer kofta.

Your 'shock horror' is no more than a cheap ploy to attack me. It is a common strategy in cyberspace - when running out of arguments attack the person instead of the facts.

Do you know anything about Afghan cuisine - I speak and read Dari and cook Afghan food at home. Afghans would absolutely never refer to anything meatless as kofteh. Kofteh are meatballs, plain and simple.

Wikipedia is no place to download your resume. If you need a job, post your resume on careerpath dot com. Or drop it off at a restaurant for a waitress position.

Also, Afghans do not cook with paneer, neither do Iranians, whose paneer is identical to Afghan paneer. This paneer is mostly used as an accompaniment to bread with assorted herbs (naan-o-paneer-o-sabzi) and walnuts. The word paneer in all probability comes from the Turkish peynir, meaning cheese in general.

Downloading all this trivia that has little bearing on the subject matter won't impress anyone here. The word Panir is of West Asian origin. Anybody with a thimble sized cranium would realize that that is the only point relevant here.

Yegads, Krishna was stealing butter, not chhana. This is such an elementary episode from Balabhagavatam, that I'm shocked, shocked that an Indian would get it wrong. There is absolutely no reference to Krishna's childhood in the Bhagavad Gita - I have read three different versions of the Gita, which one are you referring to?

Sheesh! You have parochialism written all over you. Why must a Sikh, Muslim, Parsi, Jain, Christian, necessarily be able to know anything about the Bhagavad Gita? The texts specifically refer to warm curdled milk. That can only mean either buttermilk or chhana. But warm definitely rules out buttermilk.

Not all cheeses require rennet, and not all cheese-making cultures use rennet.

But Portuguese cheese does and chhana does not. As far as I know, the only Indian cheese that uses rennet is Surati cheese and that is the only cheese of foreign origin.

Look - pumpkins are used all the time in Vaishnav cuisine - and lord knows the pumpkin is as New World a vegetable as you can get. Before the pumpkin, the chalkumro (or petha in the rest of India)was widely used in all recipes that call for pumpkin now.

Useless trivia.

I don't claim all cheeses and cheese products are Bengali in origin. However, there is definitely Portuguese influence in the creation of at least one of them.

You know zilch about anything. The nature of your baseless 'claim' if true, would automatically render all Indian cheeses Bengali. That includes, as someone mentioned, a purely north Indian chhana sweet, as well as typical Oriya chhana dishes such as rossabali (that has been prepared in the Baldevji mandir for centuries). Any Oriya temple priest would throttle you if you claimed rossabali (or rasgulla) to be Bengali. The question that you must be answering is why don't Oriyas care if the chamcham, malai chop or sondesh are called Bengali. Why does every Oriya person and every Oriya cook book, mention rasgulla to be Oriya, if it had been invented so recently? What is the origin of these claims? Why do Oriyas go ballistic only at the mention of K. C. Das but not anything else? The disrespectful and offensive nature of the way you trivialize the age old traditions of other cultures, smacks of intense chauvinism, cultural insensitivity, narrow mindedness and bigotry. Further, you consistently ignore two things - that there is a gap of several centuries between their arrival and the origins of rasgulla, and that the Portuguese came to Orissa also.

But I'm really enjoying this - because you seem to fancy yourself as some sort of a scholar. Nice, very nice.

You said that, not me. I am not the one trying to show off and impress; YOU are.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.143.178 (talk) 08:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

So were all other chhena sweets invented in the one-and-only place Bengal? Was the north indian delicacy kalakand also invented there? Perhaps we should extend the argument a little further. Unlike curdling, which is pretty much moot (the taboo that the person above is talking about was highly localised to only Bengal), potatoes were really introduced by the portuguese. So then aloo dum, and dosas must be bengali too? There is enough curdling of milk written in the Indian scriptures. So then all the scriptures must have been written by Tagore and Bankim Chatterjee then? eh?

To see a real foaming-in-the-mouth fanatic this female needs only to look into the mirror.

Here is what they say elsewhere:

Best Food Discoveries of 2007, Frequent Flier Edition http://therealpotato.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/the-2007-potato-list/ > These classic paneer-based sweets originated in Orissa — don’t listen to the Bengalis who insist otherwise

Pictures of Rasgulla http://www.picturesindia.com/food/food-rasgulla1.html > Rasgulla owes its origin to the state of Orissa. Unlike the common perception that rasgullas originated in Bengal, historical evidences reflect that these were originally made in Puri.

Aarti's corner: Rasgulla http://aartiscorner.blogspot.com/2007/08/rasgulla.html > Rasgullas have long been associated with West Bengal. But the origin of Rasgulla is in the neighbouring state of Orissa.

The Oriyan Rasgulla http://blogs.ibibo.com/ViewComments.aspx?blogid=3f82b05a-ca3a-4e38-86b6-3c7cae33634a&mid=8db1f0a8-1bdb-4d9f-8c49-d9cd8a4c73e2 > let me tell you, the Oriya version of rasgulla is a lot, lot better than the Bengali one. But alas, very few people outside the state know the flavour of the Oriya rasgulla.

History of Indian Sweets http://indianfood.indianetzone.com/1/history_indian_sweets.htm > Very few people know that the rasfulla was created in the temple town of Puri

Kolkata , India (The Rôshogolla lore) http://www.indiatouristspots.com/cities/kolkata.html > Defying the popular belief, the Rasgulla is originally a Puri (in Orissa) product. The art was eventually transferred to Kolkata, and during the Bengal renaissance,

Researchers Claim Rasgullas Were Born In Puri

I am removing a blacklisted link in here Jeroje (talk) 08:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Origin and History of Rasagolla http://originofrasgulla.blogspot.com/ > Unfortunately for Nobin Das, when he introduced, what was to become India's national sweet, to Kolkata, the Rasagolla too was already taken! By the time the recipe reached Nobin Das (which was either in 1868 or a few years earlier through another confectioner, Haradhan Moira), it was already a traditional item in Orissa

Who gave us the yummy rasgulla: Bengal or Orissa? http://www.foodmall.org/entry/who-gave-us-the-yummy-rasgulla-bengal-or-orissa/ > The rasgulla considered a popular Bengali sweet by scores of people actually has its origins in the town of Puri in Orissa. Yes, unbelievable as it may sound but it is the truth. Rasagolla, the name by which rasgulla in known in Orissa has been relished by the Oriya folks for centuries.

Interesting facts about Orissa http://www.orioz.org.au/ > Rasgolla, the sweet delicacy enjoyed all over India, originated from Puri, Orissa.

Sify: Oriya Cuisine http://food.sify.com/fullstory.php?id=14484030 > It is believed that the famous Rasagolla and other similar sweets which are commonly referred to as Bengali sweets actually originated in this kitchen and later were introduced in Bengal by the Orissa cooks who were employed by rich Bengalis.

India Travel Guide » Destination » Orissa http://www.joy-travels.com/india_guide/orrisa.asp > Rasgolla, the sweet delicacy enjoyed all over India, originated from Puri, Orissa.

Puri India http://www.indiatouristspots.com/cities/puri.html > Orissa is the birthplace of the famous Indian Rasgulla (sponge balls made from milk and prepared in sugar syrup), made popular by the neighboring state of Bengal though! So do not forget to try this at its original homeland.

Ramki's Blog: http://lordramki.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html > Legend has it that the rasagulla was traditionally made in the Puri temple, from where it moved with the brahmins to West Bengal, where it soon became very popular.

Bhuvana Sundaramoorthy: Rasagulla - Bengali or Oriya Sweet? http://bhuvans.wordpress.com/2007/08/27/rasagulla-bengali-or-orissa-sweet/ > And I found more Rasagulla shops in Bhubaneshwar than Calcutta.

Bhubaneswar Review http://www.mouthshut.com/review/Bhubaneswar-99809-1.html > If you are sweets-savvy, let me give you some secret tips. You must try the Rasgulla of Pahala , which is about 8 km from Bhubaneswar on the NH-5 towards Cuttack. The rasgullas here are not only spongy and tasty, they are available in various sizes, some as bigger as an apple.

The King of Sweets http://sontushthi.rediffiland.com/scripts/xanadu_diary_view.php?postId=1165394291 > According to one, Rossogolla or Rasgulla originated from the temple town of Puri in Orissa state in eastern India, where it has been eaten since medieval times. According to century old tradition, each year during the Rath Yatra festival (chariot festival) Lord Jagganath (the Hindu diety in Puri) is offered rashogolla at the end of his symbolic journey.

Puri Facts and Figures http://www.idiscoverindia.com/Travel_Puri/Puri_facts_figure.html

The Roshogolla from Orissa? http://www.shantanughosh.com/2007/06/rshogolla-from-orissa.html > Apparently, the dish most associated with the sweet-loving Bengali was actually created in the temple town of Puri.

New India Press: Trinity home, Sunday July 29 2007 http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEQ20070728231935&Page=Q&Title=ORISSA&Topic=0 > This is the only occasion when rasgulla is offered as bhog to the deities by the devotees

You are what you eat: Rasgulla http://you-are-what-you-eat.blogspot.com/2007/08/rasgulla.html > King of all sweets, pioneered in Orissa and later adapted and perfected in West Bengal, this famous dessert has won the hearts of millions

Rasagulllas: Krishna.com food channel http://food.krishna.com/recipe/janmasthami > Rasgulla is known as Orissa's gift to the world

Balajee: Oh, Rasgulla

removed a blacklisted link Jeroje (talk) 08:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

> I haven't had a chance to have that heavenly rasgulla. before which all the pathetic bong versions pale, literally because. the Oriya rasgulla was not white but slightly off-white. Taste wise the product popularised by one Mr.K.C.Das of Kolkata was no patch on the dish from the roadside shack.

Red Carnation: Rasgulla http://redcarnation.blogspot.com/2007/11/rasgulla.html > Rasgulla Soft, Juicy & Spongy sweet made from milk. The very popular Bengali sweet is originally from Orissa (India).

Swad: RCI Orissa Roundup http://swadofindia.blogspot.com/2007/09/rci-orissa-round-up.html > Famous Oriya sweets include Rasgolla and Chena Kheeri

Bhubaneshwar - India's Temple City http://www.notoiletpaper.com/articles/17/1/Bhubaneshwar---Indiaas-Temple-City/Page1.html > In fact, the famous Rasgulla (dough balls made of paneer in syrup) is believed to have been invented in Orissa.

Rasgulla Milk based http://www.bhavakuta.com/india/food/indian-sweets/Rasgulla-Milk-based-.html > Contrary to common belief, rasgollas were not invented in Bengal. Rasgollas were first made hundreds of years ago in Puri, the famous temple town of Orissa known for the Konark temple. Eventually, the rasgullas became popular in the neighbouring state of Bengal

Manish: Random Thoughts http://manish.ramesh.googlepages.com/ > Move on over Ganguram... Visit Pahal, Orissa, India for a taste of the real deal.

Rosogolla- the sweet sensation http://www.fropper.com/groups/Rosogolla > Some, however, believe that Rosogolla was created in a temple in Puri, Orissa, a couple of centuries ago. The sweet , courtesy Bengali travellers to Orissa temples and the famous Oriya chefs gracing Calcutta kitchens, was later introduced in Calcutta, they believe.

Free Voice of India: Rasgullas http://freepressofindia.blogspot.com/2007/10/rasgullas.html > One reaching Ghaziabad along with my friends I went to a famous sweet shop which specializes in making 'Bengali mithai' and met the 'Halwai'. Says he, "you will be surprised to know that Rasgulla which most people think is from Bengal has its actual origin in the neighboring small town in Salepur city, Cuttack in Orissa"

Orissa Famous Rassogolla http://yoomilee.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/orissa-famous-rassogolla/ > > Contrary to popular opinion (that the Bengali's have made sure to propagate), the rassogolla was invented in Orissa and the best rassogollas in Orissa are to be found at Bikalananda Kar's Rassogollas in Salepur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drosophila21 (talk • contribs) 10:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You are quite wrong. Rasagolla was invented in Orissa. There are tonnes of references to it - a few in English but mostly in Oriya. Bengalis invented the sponge rasagolla which is confused with the rasagolla, as an example of lesser food cultures being subsumed by dominant ones. Even Economic Times had an [article] on it. Anybody who has visited Orissa recognizes that, and further, wikipedia operates by consensus. Rasagollas are cooked inside the Puri temple precincts, and neither have those recipes nor have the ingredients changed for centuries. Foreign ingredients such as potatoes, tomatoes, and even chillies are taboo. Also, rasagolla has been likened to Jagannath's round eyes in a traditional Oriya song. Moreover, the rasagollas sold in Orissa look quite different than the Bengali ones.

I have not read that book that you mention, however isn't panir also curdled cheese? That knowledge got transferred from Persia during the time of the Mughals, an entirely different route. Wasn't sandesh, which is a very common sweet prevalent before the rasgulla? Lastly, there exists a gap of over four centuries between the Portuguese contact with India and the introduction of this syrupy sweet in Bengal.

Incidentally, I had added to the section on Rasagolla's history a paragraph crediting Bengal with diversifying similar sweets all of which became known as Bengal sweets. Unfortunately, it was not liked by others. SDas (talk) 13:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a authentic article on origin of rasgulla. Thank you but dont change it please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.77.185.75 (talk) 01:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Whatever. Keep patrolling this page and repeating your lies on Wikipedia. See if any serious historian cares. Boo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.156.3 (talk) 09:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC) edit to add: How did you know I was female? What a misogynist and ignorant lot! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.156.3 (talk) 09:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caution

None of the references in this article are trustworthy enough to pin down the final word on the origin of rasgulla. so I will ask all the editors to be considerate of different opinions. If the edit war goes on in this pace I will be more than obliged to remove any mention of the origin of rasgulla from this article. Jeroje (talk) 08:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

youtube video of IBN travel show piece is not a proof! how one could count it as a reliable reference? And please friends be careful this wikipedia article can bring out lot of blogs and websites which later creeps into this massive jungle of references. so please dont add any more references unless its a book by notable historians. I am still waiting to find time to get rid of other bad references. thanks Jeroje (talk) 08:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

WTF? Youtube was not added as a reference just as general information. There are other youtube videos also. The sify bawarchi article is as good as it can get. I do not think that you will find any other references better than this for an Indian sweet dish article other than one particular oriya recipe book. Even if the bad references are not individually reliable if they all say the same thing then it must indicate something. Please add the new references back as they are good ones and not blogs. Regards, 70.179.137.38 (talk) 03:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

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