Talk:Ramesses II/Archive 5

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Contents 1 Request for comments: Ramses/Rameses/Ramesses 2 Correction= 3 The Pharaoh of the Exodus 4 Ramesses or Ramses 5 Death 6 V0.5 Nom 7 GA status 7.1 Removed dates 8 Automatic peerreview ... 9 Left-Handedness 10 RED HAIR? 11 Picture 12 Vandalism 13 Length of article 14 Requested move 14.1 Survey 14.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 14.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 14.2 Discussion 15 Ramses 11 16 glyphs 17 Repeated details 18 Rework of article 19 GA Sweeps 20 Auto peer review 21 Quite a bit copied from other Wikipedia articles

Request for comments: Ramses/Rameses/Ramesses

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ancient Egypt#Ramses/Rameses/Ramesses. –Hajor 18:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Correction=

It's not the Battle of Kadesh (see comments there at talk) but the Second Battle of Kadesh R. II lead. His dad, Pepi I lead the first. I've changed the text to reflect this correction. --FourthAve 05:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The Pharaoh of the Exodus

This section states that "The identification is problematic for several reasons", but only one reason is given. Someone might want to do something about this. Tim 23:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks like one of the reasons has been deleted along the way, so I have reinstated it.

Shouldn't it be titled "The Pharoah Of Exodus"?

167.135.61.134

No, that's fine - "Exodus" is a book of the bible; "the Exodus" was a historical event. That wording is fine. CastorQuinn 09:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ramesses or Ramses

It is Ramesses in the title and called Ramses in the actual page. Make up your mind!!! I think there should be a decision about which name to call him by.

Darth Cow

This article is now called "Rameseses II" although the preferred spelling in the articles is "Ramesses II". Shouldn't this inconsistency be sorted out? Cheers, Jacklee 13:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Death

How did he die?

He died from an infection behined the one ear and severe tooth decay. He probably spent his last days in agony. Harioris 11:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

V0.5 Nom

This article was nominated for V.05 but I failed it because it has inline citation and a mess in refeneing and I don't consider further reading as one, also feels like it's too short, I'm sure it can be expanded. Thanks Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 17:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I just un-inlined the citations, although there are many that probably need to be added as well Markh 11:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

GA status

It has been suggested that this article be de-listed from WP:GA, the main reason is that the lead section. Egypt from either 1279 BC to 1213 BC or 1290 BC to 1224 BC for a total of 66 Years these two sets of dates need to be addressed. The article only supports the 1279 BC to 1213 BC. Please clarify the other dates Gnangarra 15:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It's been a week, what do we do about this? :/ Homestarmy 02:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

With no knowledgable editors monitoring, actively maintianing this article I think it should be delisted, lets wait until after 25th, two weeks to respond seems reasonible Gnangarra 03:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed dates

I have removed these dates 1290 BC to 1224 BC from the article as the article only supported the other dates, I personally have no knowledge beyond this article that can support this edit). If this edit is an error please rectify the changes and cite reasons..Gnangarra 03:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I have cited this date (and a few other things), there are other dates that exist for his reign, so they should probably be added back in, when they can be given a citation Markh 21:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I just learned that there is a question about the chronology of this well-known Egyptian ruler, which threatens its Good article status.I'd like a few days to write up some text explaining the issues around providing Ramesses definite dates. (See Egyptian chronology for an example of the material I'll be using.) -- llywrch 01:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

GA status has been retain as User:Markh had already addressed the major issue and indicated that further edits were ongoing. That being said the article would benefit from the efforts of more than one knowledgable editor thank you. Gnangarra 06:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Automatic peerreview ...

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[1]
• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
• Per WP:MOS, avoid using words/phrases that indicate time periods relative to the current day. For example, last year might be terms that should be replaced with specific dates/times.^[2]
• If this article is about a person, please add {{persondata}} along with the required parameters to the article - see Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
• Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.^[3]
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
• As is done in WP:FOOTNOTE, for footnotes, the footnote should be located right after the punctuation mark, such that there is no space inbetween. For example, change blah blah [2]. to blah blah.[2]
• Please provide citations for all of the {{fact}}s.
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a. ^[4]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Markh 20:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[1]
• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.
• If this article is about a person, please add {{persondata}} along with the required parameters to the article - see Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
• Please alphabetize the interlanguage links.^[3]
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
• As is done in WP:FOOTNOTE, for footnotes, the footnote should be located right after the punctuation mark, such that there is no space inbetween. For example, change blah blah [2]. to blah blah.[2]
• The article will need references. See WP:CITE and WP:V for more information.
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that the it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 2a. ^[4]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Markh 20:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Left-Handedness

The list of famous left-handed people includes Ramesses, but this article has no mention of his left-handedness. Anyone have more details? -Nulbyte 04:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

On the walls of the temples and other monuments he is often depicted holding objects (burning incences,ankhs and other things ) in his left hand.

RED HAIR?

Any RELIABLE source of Ramses II having red hair? I've seen this claim here and around the internet but couldn't find any credible source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.219.138.180 (talk) 14:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

Mummification can turn hair red. I have no doubt that his hair may be now red, but I do doubt that he was born with it, and I think you have indeed stumbled over a viral internet rumor. Thanatosimii 20:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Ramesses II was indeed a red head from microscopic examination of hos hair fibres. (see Bob Brier, The Encyclopedia of Mummies, Checkmark Books, 1998., p.57) Brier may have indulged in idle speculation over the so-called 'murder of Tutankhamun' but he is a first rate anatomist at Long Island University. This establishes that Ramesses II's family came from the Levant and migrated to the Delta region which was this king's family home base in Egypt. Leoboudv 06:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Some things are confusing. This mummy is above average height for an ancient Egyptian and has a hooked nose when there are no images of Ram II bearing a hooked nose. Pharoahs often shaved their head bald to accommodate their royal headress. Did these locks of red hair grow after death? It's written here in Wiki that the mummy is Berber which means that Seti I would also have had to be Berber when a drawing from his tomb www.catchpenny.org/race.html shows the Libyan (Berber) distinctly different from the Egyptian of which he considered himself. The mummy was discovered in 1881, not from the royal tomb, but from another burial sight as well as a (as reported) decapitated mummy of Seti I. The Berbers learned to write from the Phoenicians around 1000 BC, 300 years after the Rule of Ram II. Hardly in time to intellectually rule Egypt in the 19th Dynasty. Libyans in fact ruled in the 22nd Dynasty. Speaking of the 25th Dynasty Petrie wrote: W.M. Flinders Petrie, A History of Egypt - Part Three, (1896), p. 308 states: ". . . . the kings of Napata Nubia represented the old civilization of Upper Egypt is clear; and it is probably that they were actually descended from the high priest of Amen, who were the rightful successors of the XVIIIth and XIXth dynasties. So far, then, as hereditary rights go, they were the true kings of Egypt, rather than the mob of Libyan chiefs who had filtered in the Delta, and who tried to domineer over the Nile valley from that no-man's land." If in fact this is a Berber mummy as stated here in Wiki, then it cannot be the remains of Rameses II. The blood line and time line don't match up. Go to the picture section below and notice how vastly different this mummy is from any of Rameses II images. Tom 07/21/07

This site, PBS NOVA, shows Rameses II and Seti I mummies, and others. here. Hair and nails do continue to grow after death. - Jeeny ^Talk 03:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Apparently several inches in the case of this mummy. Notice this did not occur on the example of Seti I or Hatshepsut www.crystalinks.com/hatshepsut607a.jpg. In their cases, what was bald stayed bald after death. Tom 07/23/07

My cousin who is a mortician told me about the hair and nails, but they don't grow forever more. Maybe mummification has something to do with hair not growing afterwards. I don't know. Or, maybe they were naturally bald in real life? I'm just guessing, though. - Jeeny ^Talk 21:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Though relevant, the bald issue is not the most comment worthy issue here. Tom 07/31/07

Hair grows after death because skin dries up and turns into a lighter layer. This means a layer of skin may lower from the original measure to a fraction and that makes hair and nails appear to be longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.16 (talk) 02:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Can somenone add more pictures to the article, aspecialy the building and monuments part?

There's plenty of pics freely available for use on Wikimedia Commons, under the category Ramesses II, see: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ramses_II. Just make sure that what you use goes with the text, though you can also create "galleries" of like images, see the bottom of the Brussels sprout entry for an example. Cheers! Captmondo 13:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

This is another page undergoing a lot of vandalism from unregistered IP addresses. Another which springs to mind is Moses. Isn't there anything we can do about this? Robin S 23:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Length of article

This article is now massive and rambling. Can the works and other stuff that were taken out (again) and put in the articles which already exist for them, this avoids repeating the information and allows this article to flow properly. Markh 11:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

This article has been renamed from Rameseses II to Ramesses II as the result of a move request.--Stemonitis 10:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Ramses 11

King of Ancient Egypt (1099- 1069 BCE), the 10th and last ruler of the 20th Dynasty. His name was not Ramses, this was a name/title he took when assuming power. His reign was disturbed by civil wars. It was principally fought between the central authorities and the army of the high priest of Amon, Amenhotep, in Karnak. The high priest was not the victor of these tensions; with his fall Thebes disintegrated into anarchy. Herihor would emerge as new high priest of Amon and is often listed as one of the 20th Dynasty kings, since he took the title of king. There was also a war against the viceroy of Nubia. During the reign of Ramses 11, large parts of Egypt was lost, and towards the last 10 years he ruled over an area no larger than the Nile Delta (Lower Egypt). The consequence was that two new dynasties were formed, one in Upper and one in Lower Egypt. One could say that with Ramses 11 the Egypt of great dynasties comes to an end. Ramses had a tomb built in the Valley of the Kings, but as he lost Upper Egypt he was never buried here.

Found By Samantha

I'm concerned about the appearance of Rameses II mummy. His grandfather Rameses' bust displayed here in Wikipedia displays the image of a black African. Found in his fathers tomb was an image showing Egyptians and Nubians as black Africans. The mummy has a pointed chin unlike any image of himself, his father or grandfather. His mummy was also not found in his tomb and not said to be discovered until the 1880s when there was great misrepresentation of Egyptian mummies. I wonder if the mummy's a fraud. Tom 07/04/07

Now this has gotten truely ridiculous... Once again I remind you talk pages exist only to discuss changes to the article. This isn't a forum. You're not allowed to wonder here. Do that on a forum. Those are the rules, which you have been told very many times. Thanatosimii 08:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Following is an entry from the Rameses I article (in Wikipedia) that is in the same spirit of the entry I made. I hope that you don't find them both ridiculous: I would not say that the identity of the Niagara mummy was conclusively established. From what I know, they established that it was a royal mummy of the 19th dynasty, but some Egyptologists would not agree with that. Who determined conclusively that it was the mummy of Ramesses I? If there is no source for this statement, it should go, lest we mislead our readers. --Ghirla -трёп- 20:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC) I have a legitimate concern. Please take time to compare the mummy with other images to at least raise a question. Tom 07/05/07

Talk pages exist only to discuss changes to the article. This isn't a forum. Suggest how you want this article changed or stop filling it with your pov. Thanatosimii 18:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

glyphs

Well, looks like GA without full glyphs of titulary or translations ... if someone is able or willing, can they supply the glyphs, and hopefully translation will be forthcoming. --Cliau 13:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Repeated details

Half of this article is already in other articles. Please stop replacing the deleted text in the Abu Simbel section. Markh 09:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There is now too much on Kadesh, as we have an article on that as well! Markh (talk) 11:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Rework of article

Hi, I was going revisit this article and try and get it back under control (in my opinion). I think that the article is too long, with parts that should be in other articles (ie. Battle of Kadesh), and the content here reduced. I what to split out the 'Pharoah of the Exodus bit, as the article says he isn't it, but then goes on for a further 4 paragraphs about it. Also a tidy up of references (some are footnotes and some are references) is needed. Any comments? Markh (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

After a quick look, I had the following thoughts:

• The Religion and festivals section seems odd; probably not the place for a description of the festival itself but rather integrate the idea that R II used festivals for political purposes into the rest of the article.
• More info on legacy, including his immediate legacy with respect to policies and personal cult, but also the lasting legacy in the modern imagination.
• More on the cultural milieu, including the political and economic situation surrounding his reign both before and after.
• Probably should include just 1-2 paragraphs on possibly being the pharaoh of the exodus.
• Trim down external links! After having done the refs, further reading, and layout on ancient Egypt up to FA specifications, I can help with formatting of these.
• Probably should make sure to include pictures of his most famous monuments (not going overboard, of course).
• I remember reading that he's been called "the great chiseler," and I'm sure he has other fitting epithets, so these ought to be worked in. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 05:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I have left {{Fact}} tags on the article where I feel it needs it, and I have also left a list of suggestions below as part of a GA Sweeps program. Although the text below indicates seven days, I have no problem granting extensions if work is continuing.--Jackyd101 (talk) 11:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed.

• I have left {{Fact}} tags where I feel the article requires them. This is a mimimum to be honest, but I am sure that editors with a better knowledge of Ancient Egypt than I have will be more able to identify where references are required, especially if the article undergoes the overhaul suggested above.
• The writing standard is extremely low. I mean no offence, but to illustrate the problem I have given some examples below. These are only examples and I'm afraid the entire article has to undergo major copyediting (probably several times) before it is at GA standard.

• "His only known sibling was Princess Tia, though in the case of Henutmire, one of his Great Royal Wives, she was the younger sister of Ramesses."
• "The Sherden people came from the coast of Ionia or south-west Turkey, more likely Ionia."
• "shortly afterwards many Sherden captives are seen in the Pharaoh's body-guard, where they are conspicuous by their helmets with horns with a ball projecting from the middle, their round shields and the great Naue II swords with which they are depicted in inscriptions of the Battle with the Hittites at Kadesh. Ramesses would soon incorporate these skilled mercenaries into his army where they were to play a pivotal role at the battle of Kadesh."
• "The Bedouins were not telling the truth and were of course employed by the Hittite king in order to make a trap for the Egyptians." (here it appears that the article takes it for granted that one should not trust bedouins).
• "The battle almost turned into a disaster as Ramesses was initially tricked by two Bedouin spies in the pay of the Hittites to believe that Muwatalli and his massive army were still 120 miles north of Kadesh." (Just two lines after the above sentance we are told the exact same thing again).
• "called, by the Egyptians, Mwš3nt." (was 3 a letter in ancient egypt?)
• "Ramesses, now facing a desperate fight for his life, summoned up his courage, called upon his god Amun, and fought valiantly to save himself." (sounds a bit Wilbur Smith to me)

• Wikilinking is a problem, for example Kadesh is linked at least three times in as many short paragraphs, and the links in "Ramesses formed an army of four divisions; the Amon, Re, Ptah and the Seth" go to the wrong places. These links should go to the divisions (if such articles exist), not the gods the divisions were named for.
• As mentioned above, some sections (i.e. Battle of Kadesh) are much too long. I would also add that some seem much too short, for example there is little development on his family.

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are being addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Regards, Jackyd101 (talk) 11:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant, thanks for that. Markh (talk) 19:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I have now finished the {{Fact}} tags and I have a few other points which should be addressed.

• The discussion of the Bible needs reworking, probably into a single sourced sentance which discusses the debate on this issue.
• The Popular Legacy is a list and shoul be totally reworked into prose, or given the size of the article, perhaps given its own article.

Hope this gives food for thought. As long as work is continuing I'll be happy to leave this up and all the best to you.--Jackyd101 (talk) 09:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I've reworked the legacy section (and the Exodus section) and savaged the Battle of Kadesh part - the actual article is great, so it doesn't need to be all here, just the results I feel. Thanks for doing the above Markh (talk) 23:12, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Auto peer review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]
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• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
  • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
  • “In the year [of] 1255”
• As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]^[?]
• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Markh (talk) 14:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Quite a bit copied from other Wikipedia articles

I don't know how others feel, but quite a bit of this is copied from other Wikipedia articles by Egyptzo, and that is actually copyvio if no link is made.Doug Weller (talk) 13:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)