Talk:Raion

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Should we add the info about raion as an administrative division of the big city. Currently, only a division of oblast part is covered. Big cities both in Ru and UA are divided into Raions. I think this belongs to this article too. It may be a different thing but clearly the same etymology. Objections? --Irpen July 6, 2005 20:04 (UTC)

In the case of cities, "raion" is commonly and unabmiguously traslated as "district", and IMO it is only reasonable to mention this as the Russian language usage case. mikka (t) 6 July 2005 21:44 (UTC)
I see your point. However, please look at the district article. Wouldn't raion as a subdivision of oblast fit there too? --Irpen July 6, 2005 22:31 (UTC)
Yes, it will. And AFAIK, in wikipedia "raions" are often called districts. "Raion" and "oblast" terms were introduced early in wikipedia, when it was no clear policy as to naming of subnational entities. It makes sense to have articles for national terms for subnat entities, which can explain peculiarities of the subdivisions and their hierarchy. I don't feel that raion as a city district must be described here. If you have enough information about them, it will be better in the Cities and towns in Russia, which may explain their administrative structures (which is not done in "City" and "Town", btw) and also explain that in Russia city/town distinction is...er... what is it, by the way? mikka (t) 7 July 2005 01:25 (UTC)
While true that it's usually translated as "district", I don't follow why you mention only for Russian language. For example, when talking about the Kharkivskyi raion in Kiev, in Ukrainain, we'd include the world "raion". Of course, the other time, we'd just say "Kharkivksyi massyv". -- mno July 7, 2005 01:06 (UTC)
Yep. Feel free; you may even throw the Belaryussian "раён" in. mikka (t) 7 July 2005 01:25 (UTC)
Well, this issue is obvious. Less obvious, to me at least, is why following Mikka's logic the (city raion=district period) we should still have an article for raion as an oblast division. The district article covers all kinds of districts in all kinds of languages and adding an RU/UA/BE chapter would do that too. By this logic, oblast should also redirect to province. I simply don't know what would be best to do. For now, I would write a brief mention about city raions in this article but I first put up this request for opinions. Thanks anyway! --Irpen July 7, 2005 01:31 (UTC)
It is not any kind of special logic. I simply explained why the article exists. I have nothing against moving the content into the "district", into the big crowd of the likes. If it is merhed, then "city raion" goes there as well, if not, then "city raion" must be somewhere else as well. mikka (t) 7 July 2005 01:56 (UTC)

As a continuation of this talk and regarding recent deletions of my addition: The word "raion" has no strong usage in English, and this somehow must be clearly said in the intro. If you don't like my wording, change it; if you cannot, it stays.

In my understanding, the article with this title exists for the sole purpose to cover peculiarities of the notion of this kind of "district", i.e., it is a neat replacement of a title, kind of Districts in Russia and former Soviet Union. mikka (t) 17:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Okrug = Raion?

I've been reading articles on Moscow (and Russia in general) lately, and I've gotten confused (kinda) by the terms 'Okrug' and 'Raion'. Do these mean the same thing, or are there other more subtle differences which I cannot preceive? 130.225.54.2 02:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, there! I believe your confusion is in part due to the word "okrug" being used in many different senses in the Russian language. I'll try to explain.
The word "raion" usually means one of two things—"экономический район" or "район" proper. The former, translated as economic region, is used in economics and statistics, and the latter, translated as "district" or used directly as raion, is what the federal subjects of Russia are divided into.
The word "okrug" is more tricky. An okrug in the administrative sense, from top level down, can be a federal district (федеральный округ), an autonomous district (which are also sometimes called "autonomous okrugs" in English), a rural okrug (сельский округ), a rural territorial okrug (сельский территориальный округ), a stanitsa okrug (станичный округ), a territorial okrug (территориальный округ). The last four (and I probably forgot some) are just different names used for selsoviets in various federal subjects of Russia. In Moscow, there are also administrative okrugs (административный округ), which are roughly equivalent to the raions of "normal" federal subjects (Moscow is not "normal" as it is a federal city with a special status, as is St. Petersburg). The bottom line—the hierarchy of administrative structure in Russia is as follows: federal districts (okrugs)→federal subjects→raions→selsoviets. Both raions and selsoviets may have different names in different federal subjects (often utilizing the word "okrug"), but they all have virtually the same status. I believe if you study the articles in the order I just gave, it should clear a lot of confusion. Hope this helps. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 13:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your timely and thorough explanation - it has cleared up the doubts and questions I had about the topic at hand! 130.225.54.2 15:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] voblasts'

So in Oblast. If someone has arguments for vobłaść - be welcome. Xx236 10:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

I suggest to use district instead of raion. In Russian, Ukrainian or other languages maybe is used the word raion, but in English is district. Is not the purpose of Wikipedia to enrich the English language.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by MariusM (talk • contribs) .

Actually, we already use "district" to refer to the raions (to see what I mean, check, for example, the list in administrative divisions of Adygea). This main article, however, is titled "raion" because the term is widely used in narrowly specialized English academic works about this subject; it's not like we are just using a meaningless direct transliteration. The word also has an entry in Merriam-Webster unabridged dictionary. I don't have it on hand at this moment (Meriam-Webster website merely states this entry exists, that's how I know), but I'll check when I come back home later today.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I checked my unabridged Merriam-Webster, and "raion" is indeed listed there.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 02:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I propose to keep the article about "raion", but to use "district" for other Wikipedia pages. This Wikipedia is for ordinary English-language people, we should not force them to check the article "raion" in order to understand an other article.--MariusM 20:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This is exactly how it's done with Russian raions (see this for an example). You might want, however, to raise this point with Ukrainian editors, who do it differently. Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board is a good place to start raising awareness about ordinary English-language people being discriminated in their own Wikipedia :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Does the word raion have any etymological connection with the word region? Dr. Dan 13:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't seem so. Merriam-Webster indicates that the word comes from French rayon, which in turn comes from Old French ree or raie, meaning "honeycomb". The Old French word is akin to Old High German rāza, also meaning "honeycomb", and to Middle Dutch rāte. The word "region", on the other hand, is etymologically connected to Middle English regioun, which comes from Middle French region and Latin regio ("direction"). Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Interesting, and it does help. Anybody else? Dr. Dan 02:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)