Talk:Racism in association football

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[edit] Lack of balance

At the moment this article infers that racism is only prevalent in Italy & Spain. As racism pervades most if not all societies it similarly appears in football all over the world, and over time. For instance, in England as far back as the 1930s, Dixie Dean received abuse from the crowd for his dark complexion; also many black players received racial abuse in the 1970s and 1980s. In the modern day (Eric Cantona & Patrick Vieira famously received racial abuse for being French while playing in England, from a Crystal Palace fan and Neil Ruddock respectively. There is also the infamous Ron Atkinson/Marcel Desailly incident. And that just covers football in England - I can imagine there are many more incidents I am not aware of from around the world and through time. There are also the related (but not mentioned) issues of hooliganism and sectarianism.

This is a half-decent history of racism in English football. I'm sure there are books out there which would give wider scope. Qwghlm 13:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


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Edit (sorry I can't figure out how to post). I'm a casual reader who happened upon this page. The entire page is a copy and paste from the website you just linked, http://www.le.ac.uk/snccfr/resources/factsheets/fs6.html

It is not even linked to or credited in any way. Something should be done about this.

Will try to work on editing, although in fairness it is referenced. GiantSnowman 02:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nothing wrong with the balance

Racism is rife in Spanish and Italian football with monkey chants being the norm at football games. The big difference between racist incidents in Spain, Italy and England is that in England they are challenged, in Spain and Italy they are ignored or the player who is racially abused is acused himself of causing the problem. When Spanish fans made monkey chants at England players during a recent international friendly the Spanish press accused the black players and the English press of making too much of it. When the Spanish coach made a racist comment about Henry again the blame was directed at the English media and Henry. Fact is Spain is living in denial concerning racism.

The topic should also cover racism in Turkish football which is rife. Take for example the England player Campbell who was racially abused by the chairman of Trabzonspor. The media jumped to the defense of the Trabzon manager accusing Campbell of making too much of it. The next major even was the racist abuse from Galatasaray players towards a Brazilian player who was playing for Roma, again the Turkish press went into denial until the said player spoke out and said "I know exactly what was said as I have played in Turkey" More recently there is Emre of Newcastle who is now under investigation for 3 counts of making racist comments against 4 different players! Even todays (17/02/07) Hurriyet newspaper defends Emre having a front page picture of him thanking everyone for sending him faxes, e-mails etc... in support of him.

[edit] DaMarcus Beasley

"Following racist abuse from FK Zeta fans, DaMarcus Beasley previous instances of racism from Red Star Belgrade.[30] However, Red Star has been defended by black players Segundo Castillo and Franklin Salas, with Castillo saying that "Red Star fans are not racist". [31]"

This looks like it has been mangled during an edit, I can't work out what it is trying to say, so can someone that does please edit it? Pennywisepeter (talk) 14:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll edit it to actually make some sense! GiantSnowman (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting third opinion on Tymek edits

What does hammer and sickle has to do with racism in football [1]? This user might have some grievances with left movements, but sadly this has nothing to with a topic of this article, which is racism in fooball M0RD00R (talk) 13:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am hoping that somebody not involved will present their opinion, since user Mordoor keeps on removing referenced information which does not agree with his POV. Tymek (talk) 14:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
If the information is properly referenced then it should remain in the article. GiantSnowman 14:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Simple question Hammer and sickle is connected to Racism in football how? M0RD00R (talk) 14:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

And isn't the source ("Gazeta Polska" that is) a far-right weakly? Because this source says it is [2]? and, I'll cite "should not be considered mainstream". [3] Interesting case of WP:FRINGE I'd say. M0RD00R (talk) 15:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Please move speculations about Gazeta Polska to the talk page there Gazeta Polska. And sorry to disappoint you, look here:[4]. Tymek (talk) 15:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not speculations it's sources. How about answering how Hammer and sickle relates to Racism in football. M0RD00R (talk) 15:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The Hammer & Sickle is an important symbol of the left; the left is at the head of anti-racist activities. GiantSnowman 15:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The sourced information I have provided gives a more complete picture of the list of banned symbols. The list itself is notable, also its contents. Readers have the right to know who prepared it, what it covers and what it does not cover. This document, because of its pro-Communist bias, has been criticized by the minister of sports in the Polish government and Polish Football Federation has promised to make changes in it. Wikipedia is about knowledge, not about deleting information that does not agree with your POV. Tymek (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you'll have to source it far better than that before including it. It's certainly nothing to do with racism, so you'd have to show that this was a widespread commentary on the lis before including otherwise off-topic remarks. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Tymek, readers when clicking on Racism in association football expect to read about racism in football, and not poorly referenced WP:OR and WP:SYN about mystical pro-Communist bias. Of course there might be some readers interested in this topic also, so why don't you write Pro-Communist bias in association football for them, instead of inserting off-topic content here. M0RD00R (talk) 15:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Why not introduce the debate at WP:FOOTBALL for a wider perspective? GiantSnowman 16:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Agree. M0RD00R (talk) 16:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with M0RD00R. The decision not to include leftist symbols doesn't pertain to racism in football, so it should be removed. WP:V isn't our only policy. Also, since I don't speak Polish, could someone point out where the infopatria article characterizes Nigdy Więcej as an "extreme left-wing organization?" --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Question should be not "where infopatria says this or that", but "what is infopatria". Banners linking to Endecja websites, news taken from nationalist portals such as www.nacjonalista.pl suggest it's just another nationalist portal. M0RD00R (talk) 20:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
User Mordoor has an interesting way of dealing with sources. Whenever he sees one that does not agree with his bias, he calls this source nationalist or extreme right wing. Anyway, move the discussion to WP:FOOTBALL, if other editors disagree with information provided by me, then the article should be changed. And I have a proposal. Let us keep this part like this:

According to The Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism and Racism football stadiums in Poland are recruiting ground for extremist organizations (such as antisemitic National Rebirth of Poland)[28][29]. Neo-fascist symbols a few years ago were a common sight there[30][31]. Polish Football Federation, together with extreme left-wing organization Nigdy Wiecej prepared a List of 25 symbols, banned on Polish stadiums during games [32], and this list was criticized by minister of sports in the Polish government, Tomasz Lipiec.

I will create an article on the list when I have a little more time. Still, the phrase football stadiums in Poland are recruiting ground for extremist organizations is totally stupid, extreme organisations of any kind can recruit their members also on sidewalks, in shops or synagogues. Tymek (talk) 05:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Just saw this dispute, so just a quick comment from an outsider: The article is about racism in football, so this should state if the stadiums are recruiting grounds for racist organisations, not any extremists. Somebody can be an extremist without being racist at all; I'd probably replace 'extremist' with 'racist and/or antisemitic' (if that is true). That the recruiting happens in the stadium is relevant because this is about racism in football. The sentence about the list seems o.k. in your proposal, except that you should probably strike the "extreme" from Nidgy Wiecej if it's not an undisputed fact. Mentioning the facts about the list and the controversy is ok, but I think it should go into specific details. Averell (talk) 06:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Tymek it would be way more productive if instead of yet another personal attack you would presented evedince of reliability of infopatria.pl M0RD00R (talk) 19:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. And not M0RD00R calls your sources like "Gazeta Polska" article [5] extremist or far right, but sources. Gazeta Polska is called "extreme nationalist" here [6] , "far right weekly that should not be considered mainstream" here [7], it is known for publishing of anti-Semitic materials [8]. M0RD00R (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, strangely enough, other sources do not call Gazeta Polska far right, but conservative. Anyway, keep your POV-ish opinions about newspapers to yourself and concentrate on the article you are trying to censor. Tymek (talk) 20:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll repeat it is not mine opinion, but opinion cited in sources. WP:RS is still valid policy. WP:NPA, WP:CIV, as far as I know, are not cancelled as well.M0RD00R (talk) 20:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third Opinion

3O is meant for one on one disputes, which this doesn't appear to be, so you may need the Mediation Cabal to settle it. However, in my opinion, the information to be included looks on-topic to the section it's going into, as well as being sourced. I'd say keep it. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 01:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infopatria.pl

Since evidence of reliability of infopatria.pl as a source has not been provided, and almost a month passed since the request has been made, this source is a subject of deletion, and information based on this source is a subject of removal. M0RD00R (talk) 11:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

What kind of evidence do you need? Infopatria is a Christian, conservative internet news service, same news service as onet.pl or interia.pl or gazeta.pl. There is no reason to delete the information, please do not use IDONTLIKEIT again. Thank you. Tymek (talk) 17:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Please reference Your statements because unrefrenced they are of little worth. And please stop empty accusations of IDONTLIKEIT because I clearly stated what I don't like, lack of evedince of reliability of this source per WP:RS, and WP:VERIFY policies. It is up to you to present referenced evidence of the reliability of this source. To say this website this or that, it's just not enough, you MUST PRESENT EVIDENCE, that this website is reliable source. I'm looking for REFERENCED information who runs this website, positive reviews in academic publications about this website, evidence that it is used as a source in academic publications as source etc. So far banners on this site linking to websites of Endecja, movement with openly antisemitic past, or fact that is republishing material from nacjonalista.pl is strong indication that we have a piece of WP:FRINGE here. Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 18:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, please delete the sentence Polish Football Federation, together with organization Nigdy Wiecej prepared a list of 25 symbols, banned on Polish stadiums during games [32], as this is based on that page. Thank you. Tymek (talk) 21:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
OK. Glad we're moving somewhere. Now how about my concerns raised about another source? M0RD00R (talk) 21:21, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I do not understand. Minister Tomasz Lipiec was interviewed by Gazeta Polska and he himself criticized lack of communist symbols. Your speculations go a little too far and this source will not be removed. Tymek (talk) 21:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Guys, I can totally get where you're both coming from, but simply being stubborn and refusing to take into consideration another editor's opinions will get us nowhere. Let's try and come to a compromise, if we can! GiantSnowman 00:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
GiantSnowman, thanks for expressing your opinion.. I agreed to delete the infopatria source, but Gazeta Polska is way too much and it will not happen unless we go elsewhere with Mordoor's claims. Tymek (talk) 01:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)