Talk:Qumran

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This map is wrong showing En Gedi outside the green line (i.e. in the West Bank instead of Israel). Please fix this. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.220.98 (talk) 05:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Pronunciation

help for pronunciation would be nice..

[edit] Map source >> google earth

Why not start using google earth coordinates directly in wiki text? hi : ) <Abe>

[edit] merchant outpost?

I'm of a mind to scrap or heavilly rewrite the final paragraph : it is clear PoV pushing of a minority view. Very few scholars hold that the settlement had anything other than a religious purpose. Whilst the Essene hypothesis has its problems, and there is increasing dissent for this view, the dissent is not over the general religious function of the site, rather than the identification of the group as being specifically "Essene" (as we understand the term from reference to our sources).

For a recent oft-cited detailed survey of archeological scholarship at the ruins themselves, see : Magness, J, The Archeology of Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Grand Rapids, MI. : William B. Eerdmans Pub., 2002) 0802845894

Before I do scrub the entire paragraph, any objections?

Tobermory 09:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree it is a minority view, but it may be worth leaving a mention of it just to illustrate the difficulty of the archaeological evidence? After all, the relation of the Scrolls and the Qumran site nearby is still debated. I have mentioned Qumran finds in a section under Temple in Jerusalem, and the argument for a Zadokite Temple there, so it is perhaps useful to show that the extreme opposite has also been held. --ADMH 23:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I think not only the last paragraph should be rewritten, but in the light of that also other sections of the entry. E.g. the dates 150-130 are disputed (cf. Magness), and one cannot at the same time in the last paragraph question the traditional interpretation but uphold references as statements to ritual baths, etc. in previous paragraphs. The best would be to refer explicitly to different models of interpretation, namely one according to the hitherto consensus theory, and a multitude of other recently posed new ones. On the other hand, one should not state that "very few scholars hold that the settlement had anything other than a religious purpose." Most scholars, myself included, favour the religious community theory, because it is a building brick of the entire consensus theory. However, I have the impression that many colleagues acknowledge weaknesses of the conventional interpretation and do not categorically dismiss other views.

22 October 2006 Eibert Tigchelaar

I agree that it would be better to preserve the final paragraph in some form. One needs to talk about the impact of the research of the Donceels who brought to light several archaeological indications that the site has been inadvertantly misrepresented. Pauline Donceel-Voute attempted to explain some of these indications by seeing Qumran as a villa. Jodi Magness has shown that the interpretation is unlikely, though she hasn't actually dealt at all with the indications that disturbed Donceel-Voute. We are still left with quality wares made at Qumran, the production of glass wares, architectural elements such as columns which don't fit in a religious community. These do not fit into the notion of a religious establishment. There are several kilns on the site (I count at least seven, though not all in use at the same time) and much unused pottery has been found, so the production of pottery in commercial quantities seems fairly conclusive.

We can no longer accept the notion that the pottery in locus 86/89 was for ritual use in the hypothesized dining room next door, for there were far too many items (at least five for each of the hypothesized diners). The notion that we have a dining room in locus 77 needs to account for the fact that the kitchen on the site was at the other side of the settlement, so there really is nothing going for the dining room interpretation of locus 77, which looks like a common store room going on other sites in the region.

What we need to do I think, is start from the substantive evidence that can be garnered from the site, an approach which Magness lacks, as she thinks it is reasonable procedure to bias the archaeology due to the belief that the scrolls reflect a direct connection with the site, a so far unfounded belief.

I must admit that the dates 150-130 are quite unrelated to any of the archaeological analysis published for the site. The earliest of the period we are interested in, leaving aside the Iron Age settlement, is late in the reign of John Hyrcanus, as it was his coins that make the earliest sizable collection from the site. Roland de Vaux advocated that his period 1a reflected the time of John Hyrcanus. Most advocate that the site was built later, under Alexander Jannaeus. This is an attempt at economy of explanation of the site, but it requires one to date the kilns under the apron of the split cistern as coming from the Iron Age, which I think is unjustified. For me the most economical understanding of the foundation of the settlement at Qumran relates to the Hasmonean interest in occupying the Dead Sea area as a stage towards its defence. This foundation coincided with the production of pottery for Jericho and, later, other sites. Magness argues against the period of John Hyrcanus.

There are many things that are not as yet understood about the site, the first in importance as I understand it now, is water usage. There are several stepped cisterns at the site which are now generally assumed to have at least partially had cultic use for ritual ablution, yet given the extreme shortage of water in the region and the site's obvious attempt to capitalise on the greatest water conservation possible, interpreting the large cisterns as miqwa'ot seems strained. Another thing that needs to be made clear is the discussion about how many people the site could sustain, given the analysis of the site and its surroundings by Joseph Patrich and others indicates that there were not hundreds but tens of people living at Qumran. A smaller number should help to question the water usage of the stepped cisterns. It is also consistent with the notion that locus 77 was not a dining room. Still there are many issues to be clarified.

Ian Hutchesson, 25th October 2006

[edit] A rewrite of part of the final paragraph

Here is a simple approach which preserves most of the paragraph:

More recently the theory of Qumran being a religious settlement has garnered some criticism amongst archaeologists. The ruins at Qumran are considered by some to be a trading center or a commercial production center.

This book, [1], embodies the split in Qumran archaeology. Archaeologists are now analysing the site of Qumran rather than simply walking in the shadow of de Vaux. The book came out of an archaeological conference at Brown University in November 2002 and shows a rift between a conservative analysis following de Vaux and a number of analyses which suggest other possibilities.

Ian Hutchesson, 26th October 2006

[edit] Further mods to be done

Things that need to be done (random thoughts):

1) 150-130 should be more like 120-90, ie under John Hyrcanus or Alexander Jannaeus.

2) A lot of the Essene material should not be in the article, as it is mostly institutionalised speculation and has little directly to do with the site.

I added dissenting views to the Qumran-Essene Theory, including a reference to a recent paper by Norman Golb at the University of Chicago. Chrisbak 03:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

3) More of the modern history of the site, including early dig info.

4) Cemetery needs to be discussed dealing with Sheridan, Roehrer-Ertl and Zias. This is ugly.

5) More details of Magen and Peleg's work is necessary. (In Galor 2006)

6) Link to Roland de Vaux.

7) Shelves in caves speculation needs to go. Just wishful interpretation of unequal weathering of rock layers inside cave 4.

(And the Jericho entry needs some info about the Hasmonean and Herodian efforts there, so that Jericho can be better linked to Qumran.)

Got any more things that need to be done? --Ihutchesson 11:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lonnqvist

I sent this to the editor who moved the Lonnquist material from "Religious site" to "Recent archaeological analyses":

I'm writing about the Lonnquist spatial studies for the Qumran page. Although it may have been done by an archaeologist, it has nothing directly to do with archaeology, as it is clearly site interpretation and doesn't belong in a section which deals with archaeology.

There are enough problems in providing neutral material that will be useful to all readers, but the Lonnquist stuff is not accepted by archaeologists. Could I take it back out of that section? If so, how can it be included in the Qumran page?

When I separated the material into headings, I put the Lonnquist studies under "religious site" with the materials it was already attached to, which I thought was reasonable as its aim is to show the site must have been religious.

If nothing is heard, I hope to be able to put the Lonnquist material elsewhere.

--Ihutchesson 06:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to ask if Ihutchesson holds Phd in Archaeology? There are several schools in Archaeology, and the Lonnqvist paradigm is Scientific Archaeology approved by those archaeologists who understand spatial analyses and GIS. There are several European professional archaeologists who support the Lonnqvist theory, so do not make quotation marks with American - Israeli archaeologists with all the archaeologists in the world.

European archaeologist

I'm sorry, but if you'd like to argue in support of the Lonnqvist conclusions, I'd be happy to read it. Your final sentence after the "so" is obscure to me. --Ihutchesson 14 March 2007

INTERNATIONAL STATEMENTS RECEIVED ON THE BOOK:

The theory by Minna and Kenneth Lönnqvist has been listed as one of the five major theories concerning the nature of the Qumran community by Professor Emanuel Tov. (E. Tov, Controversies around the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Helsinki Collegium, spring 2003, and published in Teologinen Aikakauskirja, Teologisk Tidskrift, i.e. The Theological Journal, Vol. 5, 2003, pp. 387-400). Emmanuel Tov Professor, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel The Editor-in-Chief of the Qumran Scrolls publication project

“..it is the first of 5, since it goes deeper into the background”

Jack M. Sasson Werthan Professor of Jewish Studies and Hebrew Bible, and former Director of Jewish Studies, Vanderbilt University, Former President of Society of Biblical Literature (SE Branch), former President of Society of Biblical Literature (SE Branch), former President of American Oriental Society

“Votre travail, indépendamment de la manière dont il est reçu, représente une contribution originale aux études qumraniennes.” “Your work, apart from the manner how it has been received, represents an original contribution to the Qumran studies.”

Jean-Baptiste Humbert O.P., École Biblique et Archéologique Française, Jerusalem Final Editing of the Archaeology of Kh. Qumran & ‘Aïn Feshkha Director of Publication

“Yours is indeed an innovative and enlightening hypothesis, which strikes directly at the mainstream conception of fairly unilinear religious evolution (i.e. that Qumran is the ‘missing link’ between post-exilic and rabbinic Judaism, or alternatively, the ‘missing link’ between normative Second Temple Judaism and Christianity). Your case is argued methodologically and I admire your efforts.”

Neil Asher Silberman Author of several books in the field of archaeology Director of historical interpretation for the Ename Center for Public Archaeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium Contributing editor to Archaeology magazine

“A comprehensive book on Qumran, represents a comprehensive archaeological survey of the site and area in addition to drawing on a wide range of written and material data from several sources. A particular role is ascribed to the so-called Tomb of Jason and to the role of symbolism in the community.”

Klaus Randsborg Professor, World Archaeology, University of Copenhagen, Denmark Editor-in Chief, Acta Archaeologica

“A serious piece of work”

Ezra Zubrow Professor, Archaeologist University of Buffalo, New York, USA University of Cambridge, UK

“This monograph is based on an archaeological re-evaluation of relevant monuments (e.g. the tomb of Jason in Jerusalem) and introduction of Egyptian astrology. Also demography is analysed based on available material. The work reconsiders traditional interpretations of the phenomenon including new aspects mentioned above...they contribute to the important debate on Qumran. Chosen methods seem to be relevant and bringing results.”

Ingolf Thuesen Professor, Near Eastern Archaeologist Director of Carsten Niebuhr Institute Institute for Middle Eastern, Asiatic and Eskimological Studies University of Copenhagen, Denmark

“It introduces a new critical and controversial view about the nature and the origins of the Qumran scriptures and settlement. They raise many crucial questions about earlier Qumran interpretations and provide new alternative interpretation that makes sense....the book has global impact and, as the title suggests, attempts to establish a new paradigm.”

Milton Nuñez Professor, Archaeologist Director, the Archaeological Laboratory at the University of Oulu, Finland


“Suffice to state that the High Priest Onias (exiled to Egypt) and so-called Tomb of Jason in Jerusalem, which the Lönnqvists ascribe to Onias and his brother Jason and see as reflecting an Osirian tomb type, known from the Deir el-Medina region in Egypt, are important in the argument. ... it has opened new and important interpretations of the evidence.” Gullög Nordquist Dean of the Faculty Professor, Mediterranean Archaeologist

Institute for Archaeology and Antiquity University of Uppsala, Sweden

“A most excellent book, which I believe warrants a much wider circulation. This immensely important scholarly book gives clear-cut evidence for a linkage back from Qumran to Ancient Egypt. It should be essential reading for anyone interested in the Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran or indeed the Bible itself.” Robert Feather Metallurgist Author of The Copper Scroll Decoded London, England

One doesn't say anything by citing book testimonials.

Besides, Humbert is the only one who has certain knowledge of Qumran and he's already committed himself to his sacred space theory.

--Ihutchesson 13:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Your claim above was that the Lonnqvist theory does not find any support among archaeologists, so one needs to bring evidence to the contrary which is provided in book testimonials citations. As far as Humbert is concerned, his sacred space views are in agreement with those of the Lonnqvists (see Lonnqvist & Lonnqvist 2002 and Humbert 2006: 36).

European archaeologist

Pay a scholar and s/he is likely to talk about what you want. Give me positive scholarly citations in peer reviewed journals and you may have a point. Otherwise, nothing.

--Ihutchesson 03:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few changes

The statements (apparently authored by Robert Cargill) that Norman Golb "suggested" Qumran was a fortress and "suggested" the scrolls came from Jerusalem are subtly defamatory; I have changed them to "developed the theory" and "concluded." See Golb's comment on Cargill's allegation that he merely "suggested" Qumran was a fortress, in his review of the "Virtual Qumran" film (pp. 6-7).

I have also introduced a brief paragraph explaining that Golb, Hirschfeld, Magen and Peleg all conclude that there is no organic connection between the scrolls and Qumran, and that the scrolls came from the Jerusalem region. Clearly the question of whether the Dead Sea Scrolls were written by a sect living at Qumran is pertinent in an article about Qumran. The way Mr. Cargill had formulated things, readers were left with the false impression that Golb is an isolated figure in Dead Sea Scrolls research. Critical Reader (talk) 01:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Insertions defending Qumran-Essene hypothesis in portion on "Critiquing the Qumran-Essene hypothesis

Jossi, your lengthy quotation from Magness will be met with equally lengthy quotations from Hirschfeld, Magen and Peleg, refuting her claims. Hirschfeld indicates that similar pantries and dining areas have been found in many archaeological sites in Israel and that they were the places where the slaves of the soldiers ate their meals. (Hirschfeld devotes something like 80 pages to demonstrating that the site was a fortress--it looks like you have not read his book.) Magen and Peleg discuss the animal bones at length and show there is nothing "sectarian" about them. Magen and Peleg show that only a few of the cisterns were ritual baths, and all Jews used such baths. (It looks like you have not read this material either even though it is available on-line.)

So I suggest you either remove the lengthy quotation from a book by the most doctrinaire defender of the old theory, putting it in its appropriate spot without the words "came to the defense," or be prepared for a war of quotations here.Critical Reader (talk) 18:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that you really need to cool off. I am not interested in engaging with you on these terms. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:11, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm entirely cool, I simply believe your insertions are manifestly inappropriate in this portion of the article (remember NPOV?), and therefore they will have to be responded to. Don't say I didn't warn you before doing this, but in the end Dr. Magness will come out looking like a fool (or unfortunately worse) because of the basic points she misrepresented--implying, for example, that there is something unique about the dining arrangement found at Qumran, when in fact it have been commonly found in many archaeological sites in Israel. I'm trying to prevent this from becoming a feud--what we had was good enough, but with your pro-Essene insertions in this section (rather than in the previous one where they belong) you are opening a can of worms.Critical Reader (talk) 06:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I have now inserted material from four Israeli archaeologists (including the key specialist on pottery) rejecting Magness. I have also reorganized some of the material. I have deleted the following sentence:

David A. Fiensy, cites A. Dupont-Somer, N. Avigad and E. L. Sukeink, F. M. Cross, D. Flusser, H. Stegemann, G. Vermes, J. Fitzmeyer, J.C VaderKam, Edrdmans, F. G. Martinez, J. H. Chareslworth, and C. M. Murphy for the view that the Qumran sectarian where Essenes, N. Golb for "the view that the scrolls represent Judaism in general and not a sect", and Schiffman for the view that the scrolls were written by Sadducees.[1]

Please explain why the sentence is pertinent here.Critical Reader (talk) 20:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Israel?

Why is this page listed under the categories "Archaeological sites in Israel | National parks of Israel | Visitor attractions in Israel" when Qumran is not in Israel? 143.252.80.100 (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

because while qumran sits in the west bank, like the herodion, qumran is managed by the israel antiquities authority. many of the dead sea scrolls are in the jerusalem shrine of the book, on the grounds of the israel museum. so whether one thinks it is an israeli site or a palestinian site, it is presently a national park in israel. this will indeed be an issue as israel and palestine move towards a real two-state solution. see: here for further reading on this debate. IsraelXKV8R (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting, thanks for the info. 143.252.80.100 (talk) 10:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)