Talk:Quanell X

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[edit] Creation

I know the article is not very well written. I threw this together after noticing that Quanell X was commended by the local police for his role in the Tynesha Stewart investigations. He has been prominent in the Houston community for some time now, and deserves an expanded article. Deatonjr 18:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chronically Biased

The references to the article from "Chronically Biased" should be removed because they are far from NPOV. They also cite Tony Freemantle's article as their informational source. Deatonjr 04:50, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

While they may be "biased" the information IS accurate, so the information should stay. --Hourick 02:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the information was accurate. However, my objections lie elsewhere.
  • The article itself was biased.
  • The article's primary source for those facts was another article.
  • The credit for that information should go to the primary source, Freemantle's article, which is already cited on the Quanell X page.

Deatonjr 20:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, then I see your point. I just don't like people not citing a source for the sake that it doesn't agree with its viewpoint, no matter how reprehensible it may be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hourick (talk • contribs) 02:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "and a racism pimp"

Unless there is another meaning I don't know, I don't think racism pimp is valid in this case. Pgrote 19:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Language for Protest section

- - News reports show that the protesters were violent, racist, and aggressive. They do not show any action against the protesters by Quanell X. Please ensure NPOV. - - - - http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou071202_tnt_pasadenaprotest.5f508ed6.html - - - - 129.21.101.30 04:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC) -

I've replaced the vandalism discussion. It isn't common practice for discussion to be removed for no good reason. The purpose of this page is to promote improvement of the article.Deatonjr 20:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
In response to Fixthepedia's opinion that the anonymous poster is misrepresenting the source: I disagree. The article refers directly to "pushing and kicking matches" and "racial slurs" instigated by the protesters. It also quotes Quanell X extensively, but doesn't conclusively state whether or not his people engaged in similar behaviour.
"You watched them push, you watched them kick, you watched them shove. Did any of us do that?” - Quanell X
I don't intend to judge the good or bad merits of the article, just an observation. Please discuss further. Your comments are welcome.
Deatonjr (talk) 21:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem: none of that appears in any part of the various available videos, and all news reporters who claim there was are basing their story on that quote from Quanell. It fails to be verifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fixthepedia (talk • contribs) 16:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The article linked above has quotes from several protesters and was clearly based on on-scene reporting. I understand your position, but the videos on youtube and other sites do not have sufficient audio quality to decide either way. It is sufficiently verifiable to be cited, if any news article is. If you notice, Quanell's quote is that the reporters have seen the fights and heard the slurs.Xdeserted (talk) 07:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm the anon poster. I believe the article is quite clear in the protesters' actions, and that these actions deserve to be included. Xdeserted (talk) 23:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, no. The only quote that says the "protesters" were shouting slurs and shoving is Quanell's. He is attempting to tell the media what they saw, to spin the event, and there is no evidence to back up his claim on any available video. It therefore fails verifiability to claim in the Wikipedia article that racial slurs and shoving occurred from only one side, as you are trying to do. You are clearly trying to violate the NPOV standards by pushing that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fixthepedia (talk • contribs) 14:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

How can you tell that the media didn't hear what they reported. Can we just agree to disagree and make this section NPOV now?

I take issue with the word "reinforcements", which has a militaristic connotation,

The Black Panthers are a paramilitary hate group.
The former Black Panthers of the 60's and 70's and the New Black Panthers of Quanell X's generation are two distinct organizations with different ideologies.

Deatonjr (talk) 06:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

and with the line "Riot police had to be readied in case Quanell's Black Panthers protests ignited violence."

See above.
    • I modified and moved the above line, but it is still in the article.

Deatonjr (talk) 16:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe that this line makes it seem that the Panthers were inciting violence, which is not shown in any videos or presented in any articles.

The Panthers, if you watch the video, were far closer to violence than the protesters. Quanell has to keep reminding them not to start a fight, shouting "Nobody fights! Nobody fights!" as they walk.

The only viewpoint presented by the media is contrary to that, that the anti-QX protesters were the ones who were violent.

And only in spin quotes from Quanell.

I think that line should be removed all together, or should remain "Riot police had to be readied in event of violence between the two groups."

I disagree having actually done the research you seem not to.

Also in the "Public Image" section, the (guns and knives) is unsourced and strange, and "Black Panther Party members to provide intimidation factor." could be reworded. Xdeserted (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If you think you have better wording, present it. If you just keep reverting, it won't help you. The fact is that he does always appear with his posse, and has even required them to be present when being interviewed in places as small as radio broadcast booths.
OK, I'll present better wording.

First off, I object to the use of discoverthenetworks.org as a source. If you need a reason, just check their page on Bill Clinton. It is clearly a site with opinions, not a site with facts. I can find no reason to call the Nation of Islam racist in this article. It's just pushing POV. Also saying he was "indoctrinated" is just pushing the same POV. I can find no reference to the "bring home a second wife" line outside of discover the networks, and they don't have it sourced.

Therefore, I Would change "His father, Brian Chris Evans and mother were both Nation of Islam converts from Los Angeles and Quanell was raised and indoctrinated with the racist views of the Nation. His parents divorced when his mother objected to his father's plan to bring home a second wife, a practice condoned by Nation of Islam leaders at the time [3];" to ""His father, Brian Chris Evans and mother were both Nation of Islam converts from Los Angeles."

I believe the unsourced statement armed (guns and knives) should be removed, or changed to armed. The (guns and knives) serves no purpose, what else would they be armed with? Chainsaws?

While Quanell X may be the head of a paramilitary organization, their actions in this rally were not militaristic. Therefore I again object to "reinforcements" and request that that be changed.

You say that "only spin quotes from Quanell" support the violence from the crowd. What responsible reporter would say they witnessed something based on someone telling them they did? Either they saw violence and heard racism or they did not, but only they can tell us that. They have told us in their articles that they did. I don't see how this is disputable. Let's say I see a bird, and you say "Hey you saw a bird!", and I report seeing a bird in an article I write. You're arguing that the bird didn't exist and I only reported that I saw it because you told me that I did.

Please tell me why each of these should not be changed. Xdeserted (talk) 06:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As far the wording goes I agree, particularly with the "armed" statement.

The fact that he DID leave the scene of the protest to get more supporters of his view is known and is referenced in at least two of the newscasts. As far as the reference goes to a POV on a particular website goes, as long as the facts themselves are accurate and are backed up by another source, then it should stay.--Hourick (talk) 12:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The fact's aren't backed up by another source. DiscoverTheNetworks uses inline links like blogs do to sources, but if you read them none are actually sources, and none support that Quanell's father wanted another wife. Even if his parents were nation of islam, saying that he was "Indoctrinated with the Racist views of the nation" is POV any way you look at it. Xdeserted (talk) 22:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Horn

You know, initially I thought this Joe Horn thing would simply be a local, or at most, a region issue, but its proven to have legs and has been getting steady coverage across the nation. The major points of it seem to focus on the racial make-up, the gun laws here in Texas, and the fact that these deaths have opened an investigation involving getting Texas ID's using falsified information as well as a robbery ring. I'm ambivalent about the case getting its own article, but it seems like it might be necessary to put Quanell's protest into context. --Hourick (talk) 04:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

    • I'm about a week behind on the whole Joe Horn issue, but anyone can create an article. Keeping it from being deleted depends on what comes of the whole matter in the near future, and how much continued media coverage it receives. I find that any article with several well-cited sources and a couple paragraphs of content will pass the initial test. The real test for an article comes several months after creation, to see if the subject has remained notable enough and whether to merge, delete, or update.

Deatonjr (talk) 19:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

  • I cleaned up the Joe Horn section a bit. I removed excessive details about the case that would belong better on the new Joe Horn Controversy page. The Quanell X article should focus only on Quanell X's involvement with the case and the protests (so far). Some of the statements clearly did not belong. I removed one that stated Quanell X's protests were the only ones based on racial motivation. Race may be one factor, but might apply to the counter-protesters as well. It's a double-edged sword, this race thing. A sourced statement on opposing viewpoints for Quanell's different actions and protests is appropriate, but not all throughout each section. Examples include "Black Panther reinforcements", "protests (sic)", etc.

Deatonjr (talk) 15:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Glad that you did, I did the exact same thing with Your Black Muslim Bakery and Yusuf Bey Quanell isn't all about the Joe Horn case, but the case has a substantial note about Quanell because he brought this to a forefront of something that would have simply gone away in a month or less. --Hourick (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please Sign Comments

Please remember to sign comments with four tildes. There is a bot that auto-signs comments sometimes, but it isn't clear who made what comment in the preceding discussion. Deatonjr (talk) 06:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Useful discussion regarding YouTube as a source: Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons/Archive 4. Because of the strict guidelines regarding biographies of living persons (BLPs), verifiability, reliability, and original research, the YouTube videos will be removed. This doesn't apply to content uploaded by reliable, third party sources uploaded to YouTube (like the Bill O'Reilly interview). It will result in the removal of sections like the trivia (music videos), etc. The article will be shorter, but cleaner and more compliant to Wikipedia guidelines for articles of this sort. I won't be able to make these changes immediately. Deatonjr (talk) 17:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Public Image

I've been looking and I can't find references to this section. if he had a website with this information, I'm sure it would have been put up here by now. Anyone?--Hourick (talk) 21:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] inconsistent behavior....or is it?

I removed the following:

More proof that Quanell's actions are racially motivated can be seen in his lack of protesting for Damon Barone shooting and killing a man in self defense in similar manner to Joe Horn. Only difference was the color of their skin.[1][2][3]

because it was inappropriate, but I started to wonder if perhaps this should be put in a different section because it shows an inconsistency in his call for justice.--Hourick (talk) 14:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Right. One can only speculate about Quanell X's reasons for the Joe Horn protest without proper sources. But criticism for something that never happened? That's like the counter-protesters yelling "You wouldn't have done this in a black neighborhood!". Ok, but so what? It never happened. Deatonjr (talk) 15:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wealth of resources

Yesterday I went on houstonlibrary.org and found a wealth of articles mentioning Quanell X. I printed out a bunch, and they will add nicely to this article. For anyone who has a library card, I recommend going to your library's website and doing an article search using Infotrac. My Infotrac search turned up over 200 articles mentioning "Quanell X" from the last 12+ years. Deatonjr (talk) 14:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jeffrey Battle

Found a nice article that links Jeffrey Battle to Quanell X. Battle was one of the convicted Portland Seven, who tried to join al-Qaeda and fight against U.S. forces in Afghanistan after September 11. Battle used to live in Houston and was a bodyguard for Quanell X in the 90's. Deatonjr (talk) 15:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

As a note and for future reference: several articles have mentioned the original source for the infamous "jew-bashing" quote. It came from the Million Man March in 1995, and has been widely attributed to a Chicago Tribune article. The Houston Public Library doesn't have access to those articles online from what I can gather.... so we need to find out what the article was so the 'New York Review' source can be updated. Deatonjr (talk) 19:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

We need to find a free image of Quanell X for the article! Deatonjr (talk) 19:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Free image found. I also uploaded a version cropped to just him, but it looked strange; in the end I decided to keep the entourage. Maybe a different editor will have a different opinion. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 21:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Neat image from the Joe Horn protests. Image suffers slightly from overapplication of red beret. But I still like very much :-)) Deatonjr (talk) 03:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)